tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post3459348725009952377..comments2023-11-08T12:09:20.020-05:00Comments on Prove Me Wrong: The Inadequacy of 401k'sJonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10530680372103907969noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-76997234243515404512012-07-29T04:10:05.117-04:002012-07-29T04:10:05.117-04:00HS,
One needs to remember that Children, particula...HS,<br />One needs to remember that Children, particularly sons have a totally different SIGNIFICANCE in tribal sense. They ARE the parent's/ family's SS ...More hands to feed the family and more to look after elders when they themselves can no longer work or injured.<br />Hence your vid post of smaller families, less child mortality needs to be seen in the context of what is being substituted for that SS? This system Breaks down in the Urban/slum environment.Examinatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08990595916031900662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-39928650735445604132012-07-28T05:38:29.618-04:002012-07-28T05:38:29.618-04:00Gents,
The problem I have with your assessments i...Gents, <br />The problem I have with your assessments is that they are far too simplistic.<br />e.g. most charities are staffed and or operated (executives excluded) are either staffed by volunteers or have very high numbers of them. One large charity I know of actually has a paid to volunteer ratio of about 1/30. If those volunteers were paid simply wages commensurate to the task then the organisation could not exist. Also don't forget that many who donate time as well as cash also do highly paid functions (for free) in those charities.<br /><br />BTW these volunteers (mostly retired/unemployed/ under employed many/most SS recipients, don't get the tax advantage/break on their tax because of the donation as say Me. In reality My Tax break is subsidised by other tax payers. So in fact the donation minus the break the actually cost to me would have been something less. <br /><br />Using business math/logic, A donation of clothes has in reality little or no worth to to the donor ..I reason the same as for me Clothes I give to charity won't be worn by me any more . Usable value $0 . Unless I am going to run garage sale at which case the value received would not cover the labor to sell them. The only other option is to sell them to a second hand clothing shop...they'll pick the eyes and pay noting for for that... uneconomic...ergo opportunity/ recovery cost Nil. So the reality I was sacrificing nothing! Where's the generosity in nothing ? Would I be so churlish as to trash them because I have no use for them....Seems to me too many people do that with everything from other people's property to other's lives.<br /><br />To pursue this a little further more often than not charity shops are more frequented by middle class looking for resalable, unrecognised collectables or those who hunt retro ciche/ fashion. <br />The tragedy is that the bonuses rarely get into the shelves. I remember one woman who volunteered in a charity shop was actually spotting for her husband's upmarket antique shops. She worked under her maiden name and used her son's banger to come to 'work' leaving the BMW at home. She spotted expensive collectable from deceased estates, hiding the true value from the charity, put a $2 ticket on it and either she or a stooge would snap it up.Examinatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08990595916031900662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-30792838668597565742012-07-27T16:34:26.497-04:002012-07-27T16:34:26.497-04:00JC - My confidence in what exactly, not knowing th...JC - My confidence in what exactly, not knowing the entire tax code inside and out - there is a lot I don't know, but it doesn't shake my confidence no.<br /><br />All that happened is now we know to get an apprasial which is no problem and we will pay even less in taxes this year!!!!!!!Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14828361282326797453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-14006715221325871742012-07-27T13:31:00.470-04:002012-07-27T13:31:00.470-04:00OK, but you need to factor the following points:
...OK, but you need to factor the following points:<br /><br />1-Eliminating SS exacerbates inequality. See the TED talk for the effects and costs associated with them.<br /><br />2-If you eliminate SS money today is shifted away from spending and into savings, reducing aggregate demand. How does this impact the overall economy? What does that mean for charity?<br /><br />3-The poor give a larger share of their income to charity than the rich. Eliminating SS sends more money to the rich and less to the poor, meaning a lower share of income will now be going to charity. What does this do to Africa?<br /><br />4-What is the net effect of the savings in terms of making people feel wealthier? I feel wealthier. But the elderly person that used to get my money doesn't. If I'm in a high income group and he's in a low income group, what does that mean for charity?<br /><br />I think at best we can say that we can't conclude that eliminating SS helps Africans. So any objections to SS should have nothing to do with Africa. You can ignore the issue if you like and say we should focus on other more important things, but you can't say we should eliminate SS because we care about the plight of Africans.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10530680372103907969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-68228706211584099362012-07-27T11:51:25.487-04:002012-07-27T11:51:25.487-04:00Your response needs to factor in two points:
1. T...Your response needs to factor in two points:<br /><br />1. The savings that would happen outside of SS would be greater and larger. This makes people feel wealthier. Feeling wealthier leads to more charity.<br /><br />2. The payroll tax - basically the tax used to fund SS - is in fact regressive, not progressive.HispanicPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10220166238164432290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-87866806091827629432012-07-27T11:03:16.742-04:002012-07-27T11:03:16.742-04:00HP, I don't think they can make the same argum...HP, I don't think they can make the same argument as me. What they can do is tell a story. If you eliminate SS savings will go up. Now that these people formerly not saving are saving more money will go to charity. That's the story. Why think it's true?<br /><br />The only reason they are now saving is because they know that SS will not be there for them. Basically fear for their future. Knowing how much it will be necessary for them to save why wouldn't they rather now give less to charity? They must put more away. Giving to charity puts their future more at risk than it did when SS was around.<br /><br />Also you have the fact that SS is redistributionary. What does that do to the economy when you initiate policies that exacerbate inequality even further. You get all the various consequences described in <a href="http://bigwhiteogre.blogspot.com/2011/10/ted-talk-on-effects-of-inequality.html" rel="nofollow">this Ted Talk</a>. You get the further collapse in demand since the poor spend a higher % of their income than the rich. And lack of demand is the major driver of our economic downturn today. That exacerbates poverty, leading to further deductions in charity amongst the income group that gives the most. This is all around bad for Africans.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10530680372103907969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-56377931962443528062012-07-27T11:02:19.994-04:002012-07-27T11:02:19.994-04:00They don't pay what you do in income taxes, bu...They don't pay what you do in income taxes, but why is it that only income taxes matter? What about other taxes?<br /><br />I assume your tax adviser told you that because you didn't bring an appraisal of the value of your charitable donations, which is what I told you. <a href="http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=106990,00.html" rel="nofollow">Here's the IRS</a> explaining procedures for deducting donations in excess of $5K. <a href="http://www.hrblock.com/free-tax-tips-calculators/deductions-credits/charitable-giving.html" rel="nofollow">Here's H&R Block</a> with more procedures related to the 50% and 30% limits I mentioned. You get so many easily Googlable things wrong. And yet you're so confident in your opinions, like your opinion that global warming isn't a problem. At what point do these errors lead you to re-assess your confidence levels?<br /><br />Your job creating friends, eh? You mean poor people. Since the <a href="http://www.alternet.org/story/151705/why_the_wealthiest_americans_are_the_real_%27job-killers%27" rel="nofollow">rich are really the job killers</a>.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/tax-deductions-donations-volunteering-30101.html" rel="nofollow">Your volunteer work is not tax deductible</a>. If you are only doing it for the money you are in for disappointment.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10530680372103907969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-13110493476844662202012-07-27T00:02:35.833-04:002012-07-27T00:02:35.833-04:00Those who believe in abolishing social security ca...Those who believe in abolishing social security can make the same arguments Jon:<br /><br />1. Savings will go up without social security.<br /><br />2. The savings rate is far higher in the private sector than the "return" social security gives you.<br /><br />Ergo, more disposable income. <br /><br />Will some people now be left with nothing because of bad choices? Sure. But I doubt they were the ones who were giving much to charity anyway.HispanicPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10220166238164432290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-83356083996162743502012-07-26T23:45:36.576-04:002012-07-26T23:45:36.576-04:00Also how do you count hours donated? Can't wa...Also how do you count hours donated? Can't wait to tell the kitchen that I will no longer help because according to Jon I don't give enough. Maybe I should work those hours instead and make some more cash for me and my own.Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14828361282326797453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-54096623030789361542012-07-26T23:40:30.912-04:002012-07-26T23:40:30.912-04:00Didn't know you had an accounting degree as we...Didn't know you had an accounting degree as well. Our tax advisor outlined to us that at $5k we met the maximum deductions we could take.<br /><br />I need proof of the 50% because all I hear - from my job creating friends - is that they max deductions far below what your outlining. I call BS.Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14828361282326797453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-33628737837630818342012-07-26T23:36:29.630-04:002012-07-26T23:36:29.630-04:00Take the same 4 families that don't pay income...Take the same 4 families that don't pay income taxes so my donation is far more than theirs.Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14828361282326797453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-49805880084003383012012-07-26T22:34:35.142-04:002012-07-26T22:34:35.142-04:00Take 4 families that combined make the same as you...Take 4 families that combined make the same as you. While you'd give $5K they'd combine to give more. So if we do an income transfer, take some of your money and give it to them, all told more money will go to charity. Seems you don't want to accept facts because they don't make you feel good, but facts are facts.<br /><br />Looks like you can deducty property donations up to 30% of your adgusted gross income, but if you exceed $5K you need a written appraisal. Cash donations up to 50% of your AGI. So you can actually give a lot more than $5K.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10530680372103907969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-17319069259354908592012-07-26T22:10:11.456-04:002012-07-26T22:10:11.456-04:00Also there is a maximum allowed deduction on chari...Also there is a maximum allowed deduction on charitable contributions (Jon knows this) so how can you be sure those stats are right, because I know they are not. We gave away a couple thousand dollars worth of clothes and other goods we could not claim because we maxed our deductions. Garbage in - garbage out.<br /><br />BTW - eliminate the max deductible situation and maybe the percentage might get better.Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14828361282326797453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-63763285939845446272012-07-26T22:06:20.184-04:002012-07-26T22:06:20.184-04:00Percentage of wealth statistic? So my contributio...Percentage of wealth statistic? So my contribution last year of over $5k sucks because by percentage I give less than the $100 someone else gave? Whatever angle makes you feel better JC - I will take the 5 grand over a hundred bucks.<br /><br />Also giving away a portion of money given to you or giving away money because you pay no income tax should not count.<br /><br />Nice try though.Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14828361282326797453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-7659473071095842102012-07-26T21:41:16.472-04:002012-07-26T21:41:16.472-04:00Good Guy HP. Battling against SS because he cares...Good Guy HP. Battling against SS because he cares so much for Africans.<br /><br />On net people don't actually have less money due to SS. A tiny amount due to the tiny administrative cost (some of which of course is income for the government administrative employees). SS is an income transfer. Over 99% of the money taken from me goes straight into the pockets of the elderly. The more money they have the more they give to charity.<br /><br />And check this out. Nobody gives a higher % of their income to charity than the poor.<br /><br />http://www.financialsamurai.com/2011/03/29/the-average-percent-of-income-donated-to-charity/<br /><br />SS is mildly redistrubutionist, so insofar as it redistributes it leads to MORE charitable giving. Also it grows our economy because it spurs demand since the poor spend more of their income than the rich. This leads to more income for others and hence even more charitable giving..<br /><br />All that and it doesn't contribute to the deficit (in fact it has run a surplus). Nothing has done more to reduce elderly starvation and homelessness in this country. Pretty impressive.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10530680372103907969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-84684847868489089092012-07-26T20:26:58.990-04:002012-07-26T20:26:58.990-04:00HP - Are you saying that people are generally gene...HP - Are you saying that people are generally generous and will do good if given the chance? AMEN.<br /><br />I give to charity regularly, but when gas went up to $4 from $1.60 and other costs went up, my charitable contributions went down. A budget is a budget after all.<br /><br />Jon and others like him would rather take our money to distribute as they see fit versus individuals making the choice to help.<br /><br />AMEN sir, Amen.Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14828361282326797453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-80727724991497199722012-07-26T19:25:37.766-04:002012-07-26T19:25:37.766-04:00My argument is that "relative suffering"...My argument is that "relative suffering" of the worlds richest people carries little weight in whether SS is a preferable policy. <br /><br />But yes, in general, I would argue that a lower tax rate leads, partially, to more general charity, which leads, partially, to better results in Africa. Not a direct relationship, but there is one.HispanicPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10220166238164432290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-64635587583984008752012-07-26T16:38:31.915-04:002012-07-26T16:38:31.915-04:00Is it your argument that scaling back/eliminating ...Is it your argument that scaling back/eliminating SS helps Africans?Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10530680372103907969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-19316193263090605572012-07-26T15:27:53.695-04:002012-07-26T15:27:53.695-04:00There are trade-offs. Money has limitations. You c...There are trade-offs. Money has limitations. You can't do everything. Priorities have to be made.<br /><br />My point is that the money spent on "alleviating suffering" should target the most needy people. Not "relatively" needy people. Hence my near universal dislike of any government support for responsible adults.HispanicPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10220166238164432290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-81751584912766157242012-07-26T14:20:13.743-04:002012-07-26T14:20:13.743-04:00Without sidetracking the discussion into how thing...Without sidetracking the discussion into how things are going in Africa the fact remains that there is no reason to think inducing suffering amongst elderly Americans helps Africa so to say it's better to alleviate poverty in Africa than in the US is beside the point.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10530680372103907969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-3926129794338901242012-07-26T12:01:30.864-04:002012-07-26T12:01:30.864-04:00 Here is my evidence to the contrary. See here, he... Here is my evidence to the contrary. See <a href="http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_the_good_news_of_the_decade.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>, <a href="http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2010/04/good_news_on_af.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> and <a href="http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2010/01/fruitful-decade-for-many-in-the-world.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.HispanicPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10220166238164432290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-6020225888432832452012-07-25T14:37:02.973-04:002012-07-25T14:37:02.973-04:00My source is Ha Joon Chang in "Bad Samaritans...My source is Ha Joon Chang in "Bad Samaritans." Sorry, I hate to just refer you vaguely to a book because I know it takes a lot of effort to check that. I'll see if I can dig something up online.<br /><br />But the book is really great and worth your time to read, as I've mentioned before.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10530680372103907969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-61514837678298744862012-07-25T14:29:18.061-04:002012-07-25T14:29:18.061-04:00In fact during the period for which taxes in the U...<i>In fact during the period for which taxes in the US have become less progressive, we've had less income redistribution, less regulation, etc things have gotten much worse in Africa, so there's no empirical reason to think that additional suffering for elderly Americans is somehow good for Africa.</i><br /><br />You say this, but can you prove it? I, of course, have heard differently. I wanna see your proof for such strong statements.HispanicPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10220166238164432290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-20012713518302408562012-07-25T14:08:19.011-04:002012-07-25T14:08:19.011-04:00This is not true. You know this. Quit with the exa...<i>This is not true. You know this. Quit with the exaggerations. Chad's proposal would be, essentially, a transitory cost.</i><br /><br />We'll have to let Chad tell us if that's what he meant. I thought he meant he wanted out entirely, like he wouldn't pay in anything any more. If it's so great it can get along fine without him and those that like it can stay in. That assumes the program is like a savings plan, which is a common misconception.<br /><br />As far as social instability, yeah, it's speculative. Maybe you'd be fine.<br /><br />As far as alleviating poverty in Africa, that has nothing to do with this discussion. It's not as if eliminating SS is some sort of benefit for Africa. In fact during the period for which taxes in the US have become less progressive, we've had less income redistribution, less regulation, etc things have gotten much worse in Africa, so there's no empirical reason to think that additional suffering for elderly Americans is somehow good for Africa.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10530680372103907969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-44642461352063984652012-07-25T13:21:30.602-04:002012-07-25T13:21:30.602-04:00Examinator,
I choose a. :-)
Jon,
A couple resp...Examinator,<br /><br />I choose a. :-)<br /><br /><br />Jon,<br /><br />A couple responses. <br /><br />First, diving a bit into your discussion with Chad, you wrote:<br /><br /><i>The premiums you pay in SS today are used to pay elderly retirees today. <b>So if you and I don't pay those retirees don't get their check, and they therefore go hungry today.</b></i><br /><br />This is not true. You know this. Quit with the exaggerations. Chad's proposal would be, essentially, a transitory cost. Sure, today it would cost us more. But when Chad retires, it will cost us LESS. And since the wealthy tend to live longer, it might even be a net boom to social security.<br /><br />Will there be a temporary spike as many people drop out? Sure. But that can be added to the deficit. Or taken away from military spending, or.... No need to let the current elderly "go hungry today".<br /><br />Back to our exchange, you write:<br /><br /><i>Yeah, "Let em die" is one conservative view,...</i> <br /><br />I prefer to call it: personal responsibility. Live with the decisions you made. I'm fine with that. <br /><br />How many people would actually die though? I doubt many. Sure, it would be an increase - but I doubt it would be drastic. Most people respond to incentives. Charity will pick up alot of the slack. And the rest can simply serve as examples.<br /><br />I doubt it would be anything on the scale to reach "socially unstable" levels.<br /><br />But even if it did, you know my views on alleviating poverty: better to alleviate TRUE poverty than "relative poverty". In other words, better to send money to the destitute in India, or Africa, or China, than some relatively rich american who decided to spend all his money on gambling, or drugs, or consumerism, or any other vice. <br /><br />That's real deserved suffering alleviation that is worth the money.HispanicPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10220166238164432290noreply@blogger.com