tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post6649300185442387058..comments2023-11-08T12:09:20.020-05:00Comments on Prove Me Wrong: Market FailuresJonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10530680372103907969noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-19814780795858017052012-11-24T18:43:46.373-05:002012-11-24T18:43:46.373-05:00Jon
Keep an eye on this
http://www.alternet.org/...Jon <br />Keep an eye on this <br />http://www.alternet.org/watch-out-plutocrats-progressive-pro-democracy-movement-savvy-and-gearing-take-citizens-united<br /><br />And this is all the things Chad and the conservatives don't want you to understand...probably because they don't understand them themselves.<br />http://media.wix.com/ugd//d0a82b_3e6f4e038fd6167c5f8ac59f8aa0e0cb.pdf<br /><br />Like I say Context/ consequences are everything Examinatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08990595916031900662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-4758965958952757642012-11-23T21:46:01.655-05:002012-11-23T21:46:01.655-05:00Chad,
I'm not looking for the Grim Reaper I th...Chad,<br />I'm not looking for the Grim Reaper I think you missed the point I was/am advocating that people stop and enjoy what they have particularly the relationships, rather than work and sacrifice or put it off for a career or things.<br /><br />My eldest daughter who was diagnosed with a degenerative condition at 16, an is unlikely to live to her 50's.<br />BTW I've had a few doses of cancer my self ...currently in remission.<br /><br />Despite her failing health she told me she wanted to go to Sri Lanka and on to India. My advice to her was the maxim of my life "don't die wondering if I had....don't be silly and do it"<br />Again Chad, it's a matter of degree.<br /><br />I'm not so sure that your nephew's choice is *undeniably* the best one. But again I'm not him and I don't know all the circumstances.<br /><br />Like Jon I deliberately drive a 18 yo Subaru sedan for a number of practical reasons. Having had the Mercedes, caddy's, BMW and even a Roles Royce as a mark of my success. But at the end of the day a vehicle is a means of getting from point A to B. <br /><br />I fail to see that my life has been enriched by them. Certainly not to the point that the working long hours etc were worth the sacrifices.<br /><br />You really do have a problem in even considering the alternatives except in a Black or White context.<br /><br />e.g. I don't know how many times I've pointed out to you that "Liberals(US version)" lefties, et al aren't one great amorphous mass neither are they actually for stopping all pollution ....now....today etc as you insist on mis-saying. Sure it would in one sense be great but it isn't realistic. Neither is it sane/realistic to do the proverbial ostrich and bury heads in the sand and go one as though AGW (sic)doesn't exist.<br />Most telling are those 'corporate executives' who 'just know' everything but when push comes to shove if faced with the real data their myopic experience isn't worth squat. They simply lack the knowledge and skills to read it let alone assess.<br />The term horses for courses come to mind. Why is it that very few Right wingers have the nous to simply admit that they don't know or don't understand something? <br />Examinatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08990595916031900662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-47172417892228477152012-11-22T22:05:48.757-05:002012-11-22T22:05:48.757-05:00The bourbon was a gift from a customer, I generall...The bourbon was a gift from a customer, I generally am a scotch man and with my cash I buy Cutty Sark. It has the taste I prefer with the price point that makes sense. With that said there are occasions when I splurge and regardless of what you say every drink of the high dollar hootch tastes that much better - probably because the drink symbolically represents a milestone or winning, but it tastes way better. How ironic (yet not surprising) that somehow you know more about liquor than everyone else as well and you want to tell me how to buy and drink my liquor - interesting. <br /><br />I watched cancer take my girlfriends mom and one of my best friends not to mention others as well, I had surgery to remove part of my face which had cancer. I had a front row seat for many years so I will take your 3 hrs of waiting any day. Your assumption is about as far of the mark as most of your posts. The reason I live like my hair is on fire is because we don't have control so you better make everyday count. A song for you - Tim McGraw's - Live like your dying. The only thing they asked those of us not currently afflicted was to live life with no regrets and that is exactly what I am doing. Sounds like your so busy looking for the Grim Reaper you might be missing something beautiful. Besides my faith allows me to believe that this life is the painful one and when my time is up I am moving on to see love ones lost.<br /><br />As far as the consumer or ego thing - who cares! What's funny about Liberals/Progressives (besides their ideas always requiring 100% participation) is when they stand up and tell everyone how to live without understanding the consequences. Like Jon and I think you agreed although I don't often read your posts so I guess I am not sure, but like the Global Warming thing. Jon says we need to react right now, turn off every carbon producing car, boat, jet airliner and so on so forth - okay so then what will the people do to make money? Oh thats right gov't will print money and no one will have to work any longer. Total collapse. Your flying your flag - don't impulse buy, your stupid if you do so. If we adopt your way another total collapse. If people only bought what they needed only - no extras and like Jon saying he is driving a 1989 van see how responsible he is, but if we all adopted his attitude their would be nobody working. When we buy a new TV, an RV or rent a cabin in the hills of Tennessee we smile and are happy - we are helping in a small way to keep our fellow hard working Americans while at the same time making great memories for our family.<br /><br />Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14828361282326797453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-88513156307529283202012-11-22T20:48:30.233-05:002012-11-22T20:48:30.233-05:00BTW
In other countries Thanks giving has many nam...BTW <br />In other countries Thanks giving has many names but is largely the same context "harvest festival".<br />Now the kicker, they have been around and at roughly the same times since pagan times. <br />Constantine when he converted the Romans from paganism to Christianity (as a promise if he won a particular battle) found his subjects rebelled against losing their (gods)holidays. He simply Followed the Roman practice of adopting pagan gods and their special days by simply re naming them. <br />Thanksgiving is one morphed version of the celebrations of Bacchus etc.<br /><br />Christmas is simply appropriation of a major pagan solstice celebrations (Saturnalia) .<br /><br />Evidence in the Bible descriptions and correlation with historic events puts Jesus' birthday (?) at a different time of year. <br />BTW there are several Jesuses it was a common(ish) name at the time. Examinatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08990595916031900662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-48816207503148759812012-11-22T20:12:25.610-05:002012-11-22T20:12:25.610-05:00Chad,
My apologies I forgot momentarily that subtl...Chad,<br />My apologies I forgot momentarily that subtly and shades of grey aren't your long suit.<br />On a personal note your assumptions are well off the facts. If I didn't know you I might be offended.<br /><br />'Frugal' me? you have to be kidding.I have a computer, book readers, two cycles, I drink wine, love chocolate....ah chocolate hmmmmm and many 'useful' but not strictly necessary things. <br /><br />I live in a four bedroom house with a large lounge area , I have pets an outside pergola where the family gather with many orchids and a reasonable garden . I just don't subscribe to the BS of consumerism and owning stuff for the sake of ego or displaying opulence or because I can.<br />Your underlying assumption in your response is that people need 'things' and corporate success to be happy ...frankly that isn't true in fact the exact opposite can be proven. There is a balance. <br />As for buying each other presents on specific days (why? because some marketeer says so?). What for example are they going to buy me that I haven't already bought myself if I need it? The Aussie term is " sox and Jocks (underpants) reflex". We buy each other gifts when the * need * arises. We get together on 'significant days and when we feel the need. We actually have lengthy conversations with our children on almost a daily basis. In the case of our daughter on the mine several times a day depending on her mood/need.. My corporately minded son at least every other day . My other son I am his research department. <br />Oh yes my children generally earn more than me currently. <br /><br />We know and have celebrated "T day" when we lived in the US several times. Surely the key is getting together as a family and sharing...after all that was one of the reasons my wife and I emigrated. Not just the 35YO Bourbon. <br />FYI booze is an acquired taste and like most things once you get to a certain level further steps provide diminishing differences.<br />I'll bet you that if I was back in SC I could serve you a bourbon that wasn't a 35 YO one half the price of yours and you wouldn't be able to tell. <br />I've drank the $600 bottle of wine the $800 bottle of single malt ...sure their nice but really THAT much better worth the extra effort , hours away from my family ...Meh !<br />As for the implication that “non conservatives” (me/Jon) are somehow not a rampant individualist.....you simply aren't paying attention to what has been written or have an incredibly short attention span. <br /><br />FYI it is arrogance that *assumes* that only conservatives or Americans value and or aren't individualists, entrepreneurial,ingenious. In fact all those features are HUMAN traits. You really need to get over the notion that the world is divided into two camps Conservatives and 'socialists' (sic). It simply isn't true! <br />For those who actually read what Jon and I write there are significant differences.<br /><br />'The dumb question' I'd be curious how you'd define Adelson and Murdoch both are past their best, they hardly need the money to enjoy the 200 yo bourbon. In truth they are their jobs if they stopped they'd lose their self identity and die. Some day you should read about Murdoch's life, talk a bout a tale of misery. His father was too busy for his children ...and Rupert repeated the same mistake.<br />Finally the cancer thing. Clearly you are still at an age whereby you consider the future and mortality a long way off. <br />I hope such realisations of the fragility of life comes easy to you and you don't find yourself away from home with your child emergency admitted to hospital and probably dying. Maybe sitting in a waiting room for hours waiting for a diagnosis while wondering about all the things you meant to say or all the things you may not get to share. It is then that every moment becomes important and the time spent on working for that 3D TV that now becomes a regret. Examinatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08990595916031900662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-61152833426472079392012-11-22T13:12:41.367-05:002012-11-22T13:12:41.367-05:00"Thanksgiving is a typically American holida..."Thanksgiving is a typically American holiday. In spite of its religious form (giving thanks to God for a good harvest), its essential, secular meaning is a celebration of successful production. It is a producers’ holiday. The lavish meal is a symbol of the fact that abundant consumption is the result and reward of production. Abundance is (or was and ought to be) America’s pride—just as it is the pride of American parents that their children need never know starvation." <br /><br />The Ayn Rand LetterChadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14828361282326797453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-87679749417109253852012-11-22T10:12:30.348-05:002012-11-22T10:12:30.348-05:00That question, for me, is one of the all time dumb...That question, for me, is one of the all time dumbest. Unless a person is independently wealthy the two are tied together. If I walked out my front door and got hit by a car ripping off my leg that would change my life, views and ideas as well so the cancer thing is another duh moment.<br /><br />Jon tries to force feed some study that tells us happiness is not tied to wealth - I suspect the way the questions were asked skewed the results, but sitting here in the hills of Tennessee at a cabin overlooking a beautiful landscape sitting in a hot tub sipping on 35 year old bourbon with my family is about the happiest I have ever been. The only thing that will make me happier is when my parents get here to join us.<br /><br />The fruits of my (and my wife's) labor allows us these special, very special opportunities. We got the Macy's parade on the HDTV, the bird is in the oven and nobody and I mean nobody has anything less than a huge smile on their face. <br /><br />Now would it be any less special if we were back home - hell yes it would why lie about that. This T-Day will be remembered forever in found light by all of us. And Ex - that is also another reason why my wife and I work this hard is due to life's unknowns. While Jon and possibly you choose to be frugal, not get swept up in buying things your family might enjoy (selfishly I might add) and claiming your happiness is equal or greater than ours because your sitting on one another's lap at the home you come home to every single day of your lives is somewhat of a joke. If God decides that it is my time in 6 months, my kids and my wife and my family will remember and cherish this T-Day above all others. This is memorable, this is living, this is the way I want to live my life without question. Being able to essentially never having to tell my kids no we can't do something warms my toes to the tips and beyond.<br /><br />I don't know about Jon's kids, your kids, your or Jon's wife - maybe they are simply happy looking at your face sitting at the same kitchen table you sit at everyday, but I'd like to ask them privately if they would be happier there or if they would be happier joining are family here - I suspect the answers would be overwhelming. In order to afford these trips it requires working .<br /><br />And why not strive to be the best while working? Why not put in extra hours during the week to enjoy an extra on the weekend. I laugh at Jon's assertion that somehow I have less quality time with my kids than maybe others - unless he requires the entire family to sit in the same exact room - unless he has no TV's at all his kids (like all kids) have their own agenda - on weekdays my son has sports, homework, chores and his fun stuff that he likes to do. Sometimes I don't see him until 10 minutes before his bedtime and it had nothing to do with my availability. <br /><br />On top of all else - the values being learned by my kids - they just can not be under stated. We are raising kids who will value hard work and success - no matter what they decide to do they will have a blueprint of what success looks like. <br /><br />Time for another pour - HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all.Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14828361282326797453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-60693811263541359452012-11-21T17:42:15.424-05:002012-11-21T17:42:15.424-05:00Jon,
I think you're right from the wider NATIO...Jon,<br />I think you're right from the wider NATIONAL or for that matter international perspective.<br /><br />Chad <br />I would warn all work-a-holics or people who put off a life for 'trinkets' cool or otherwise to consider carefully the message in this song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH46SmVv8SU<br />The other thing you should consider is how fragile and unpredictable life IS.<br />I call it the "Cancer wake up". Trust me on this one there is nothing like a bout of cancer to you or a loved one to make one reconsider what is really important.<br />i.e. do you live to work or work to live?<br />Examinatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08990595916031900662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-26160492013364379132012-11-21T16:11:23.794-05:002012-11-21T16:11:23.794-05:00Jon,
Thanks for indulging in my question. No, it’...Jon,<br /><br />Thanks for indulging in my question. No, it’s actually not a loaded question or a trick, – I’m just trying to drill down to your underlying assumptions and understand where you’re coming from instead of just going back and forth endlessly on liberal vs conservative economic arguments.<br /><br />Jon wrote:<br />Anyway, I suppose the person with the father that bailed him out is more likely to be unprepared in the future. But let me tell you what he also may do. He may be more gracious to others. He may end up being a better person, knowing that not everybody is perfect, so forgiveness and grace are virtues.<br />--<br />I think it would be great if this were to happen. Do you think they would be more or less likely to be gracious and thankful if one day they got a $15,000 bill in the mail unexpectedly, and then the next they got a $15,000 check, or if they had a month in between where they were trying to figure out how they would come up with the money and had to take a hard look about what they might need to do to pay it off?<br /><br />Dietrich Bonheoffer talks about this with this ideas of Cheap vs. Costly grace. He was a pacifist German who fought against the Nazis and was big into social reform as well, and I’m guessing you might already be familiar with his work, but if not, I think you’d really like this book about his life, or his writings in general: http://tinyurl.com/a5m72on<br /><br />He talked about the situation where all our problems are simply swept under the rug, the consequences are short circuited. It does no good for someone to be forgiven if they do no change their ways, and most times in order for us to get to that point, we have to undergo some measure of consequences for our action before we really decide to change. I know that’s how it works for me.<br /><br />The problem I see with our society is that to the extent we short circuit the natural outworkings of the problems we have (i.e. digging ourselves deeply into debt, and then erasing the debt) it both fosters a sense of thanklessness and entitlement, and also prevents us from learning and growing as a person. The real travesty here is not that it’s unfair that worker A had to struggle and work through debt and worker B did not, it’s that person B was not given the opportunity to grow and become thankful and more mature as a person going through the process.<br /><br />Jon wrote:<br />Back in my right wing days I had a relative that was like this. She had too much credit card debt, made a lot of poor decisions. Her Dad bailed her out, and like a good, cold hearted right winger I was critical. But here we are years later. She has made poor financial decisions subsequently. But here's what else. She's a great person. Not stingy. Very sharing. Very giving. OK, maybe she shouldn't be given her financial situation, but she is just plain good.<br /><br />I also know some people that are exactly the opposite. They punish their kids financially in a sense. I'm not going to get into the details, but they are committed to making sure their kids make wise financial decisions. It's worked. The most stingy, selfish, unforgiving kids you'd ever meet. So far it looks like they will have money in their adulthoods, but at what price?<br /><br />You know what's interesting to me? The more I think about Jesus the more I recognize that in my former days as a Christian I really wasn't following him. He had nothing and that was good enough. He taught forgiveness and grace. I embrace that more today than I ever did.<br />--<br /><br />You do bring up a good point – one common trap is to look at those struggling financially and get mad at them and judge them, and be arrogant that they are not as “responsible” as you when we never walked a mile in their shoes. <br /><br />You can indeed go too far on the other way and be punitive and judgmental in your desire to force people to pay for their actions or situation. <br />Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09194529646410525617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-19615768251640334412012-11-21T10:59:33.862-05:002012-11-21T10:59:33.862-05:00HP, there's reason to think that Black Friday ...HP, there's reason to think that Black Friday actually is not the best time to buy in terms of prices. See here:<br /><br />http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443615804578042700772445448.html<br /><br />Not that this changes your point because sales could increase regardless of the price because of effective marketing, so I still grant you COULD BE right that sales are higher because they extend the Christmas shopping season by a few hours. So I'm not saying your wrong, just adding some food for thought.<br /><br />If you're right then I still would object and call it a market failure for other reasons, but you would be right that my reasons here (it's zero sum) would not be valid.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10530680372103907969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-75269327427535207312012-11-20T20:04:31.302-05:002012-11-20T20:04:31.302-05:00HP,
There are few problems with your assertion.
Fi...HP,<br />There are few problems with your assertion.<br />First... There will always be the late shopper 'oh god, Aunt Boris has sent us a present and we forgot her' and human nature. it is demonstrable fact that crowds generate bigger sales over all. Ergo in marketing terms the idea of Dirty brown Wednesday, grey Thusday, black Friday or purple with pink spots Saturday is to create more Crowds...interest, excitement to stimulate the emotion to buy now...or miss out.<br />Interestingly in Aust the biggest single sales day turnover is "national exchange day" (aka Boxing day Sales(hmm?)).<br />BTW in big retail stores the myth is that their profit comes from the cash register..... it doesn't it's the cash flow and what they DO WITH THAT. <br /><br />The second is the dual self ass biting devils of the consumerist on steroids from Cassandra's Box. i.e. What is being bought (where is it being made...jobs).<br />Then who is funding the consumer DEBT.<br /> <br />In short what is happening is the US is borrowing consumer debt from the manufacturing country. <br /><br />What both you and Chad are looking at is myopic focused. It helps specific retailers etc. with market SHARE of the Pie but it doesn't build NATIONAL Wealth...it doesn't help the current account, to do that you need a balanced economy. <br /><br />See the real Capitalism as writ by it's inventor the real Adam Smith. <br />Not the fictional one and his faux Capitalism.<br /><br />It is demonstrably fictional to assert that more part time retail jobs compensates for loss of full time jobs. <br />Both you and Chad are confusing sales with profit and marketing with Economics.<br /><br /> <br /> <br />Examinatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08990595916031900662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-57421511961277477552012-11-20T19:59:55.836-05:002012-11-20T19:59:55.836-05:00JC - That is no where near the same. Gov't de...JC - That is no where near the same. Gov't decided to end something that would otherwise continue leaving a hole. Typewriters where replaced with a new product/service. The market share moved to a new product and not by force.<br /><br />Not the same at all.<br /><br />Same on this topic, before you went off roading. There are no outside market forces only market choices. If Biz A decides to open 24 hrs to sell product and Biz B shuts down to have turkey that is not a market failure.Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14828361282326797453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-8402725049277935762012-11-20T17:22:41.660-05:002012-11-20T17:22:41.660-05:00Btw, I dont want you to think that I am blindly in...Btw, I dont want you to think that I am blindly in favor of this. I do believe there is SOME level of the "collective action problem" at play here. Probably not as much as you, but certainly SOME.<br /><br />So go ahead, ask me: HP, what would YOU do? Glad you asked! If I was king of the world, I would support economist Robert Frank's idea <a href="http://mobile.nytimes.com/article?a=871987" rel="nofollow">here</a>. <br /><br />Specifically, this part: <i>"an across-the-board 6 percent national sales tax (on top of any existing state and local sales taxes) in effect from 6 p.m. on Thanksgiving to 6 a.m. on Black Friday.<br /><br />This plan would leave both stores and consumers free to decide for themselves whether middle-of-the-night shopping is worth it. Even if some retailers decided to stick with the early openings and even if some shoppers showed up, the country would reap a significant benefit. As every mature adult realizes, we have to tax something, and the revenue from my 6-6-6 plan would make it possible to reduce taxes on other activities that are actually useful. Best of all, it would encourage Americans to spend Thanksgiving night where they really want to - in bed."</i><br /><br />Keep in mind though that I only support this because of the employees perspective, many of whom will be forced to work Thanksgiving afternoon because of such "collective action problems". For an alternate view, see <a href="http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/11/the-economics-of-black-friday.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.HispanicPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10220166238164432290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-20102405302350540242012-11-20T17:08:38.094-05:002012-11-20T17:08:38.094-05:00Jon,
I think I get you more now. I see your point...Jon,<br /><br />I think I get you more now. I see your point. I still disagree with it, but it's not unreasonable. Thanks for clarifying! <br /><br />With that said, the part I disagree with is this: <i>...but you do shop some time between Thanksgiving and Christmas. That's what I'm saying. Total expenditures are going to be the same and the number of hours required is proportional to the amount of sales. Not exactly probably, but close.</i><br /><br />Remember, by including more people in the black friday sales (because of lesser crowds), you are including more people in a sales event that sells products at lower prices. Which means MORE products will be bought. Which results in more sales.<br /><br />Think about it this way: I am an AVID credit card rewards person. I try to maximize my credit card rewards. But because I know I am getting 5% back at select merchants, I have urges to spend more. Much more than that 5% savings. On net, rewards often leads me to spend more $$ than I save. <br /><br />That's how lower prices work. They will drive people to spend MORE. HispanicPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10220166238164432290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-91615693492013383362012-11-20T16:33:04.685-05:002012-11-20T16:33:04.685-05:00Chad, in the market we have effort exerted for no ...Chad, in the market we have effort exerted for no net benefit (again, assuming I'm correct that total expenditures are unchanged).<br /><br />It's just like smoking. They exert the effort making the advertising. On net it did no good. It was effort wasted. You can say that it was good because it was money in the pockets of the advertising agencies, but by that logic we should stick with typewriters instead of computers because now typists are deprived of money they would otherwise make. If a company employed people to just dig ditches and re-fill them this would be good because these people now have salaries and otherwise they wouldn't. I assume you think that is waste and not ideal.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10530680372103907969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-26652502895826102202012-11-20T16:27:15.015-05:002012-11-20T16:27:15.015-05:00Jonathan, why do I get the feeling you are leading...Jonathan, why do I get the feeling you are leading me down some path that is going to have me ending up looking stupid?<br /><br />Anyway, I suppose the person with the father that bailed him out is more likely to be unprepared in the future. But let me tell you what he also may do. He may be more gracious to others. He may end up being a better person, knowing that not everybody is perfect, so forgiveness and grace are virtues.<br /><br />Back in my right wing days I had a relative that was like this. She had too much credit card debt, made a lot of poor decisions. Her Dad bailed her out, and like a good, cold hearted right winger I was critical. But here we are years later. She has made poor financial decisions subsequently. But here's what else. She's a great person. Not stingy. Very sharing. Very giving. OK, maybe she shouldn't be given her financial situation, but she is just plain good.<br /><br />I also know some people that are exactly the opposite. They punish their kids financially in a sense. I'm not going to get into the details, but they are committed to making sure their kids make wise financial decisions. It's worked. The most stingy, selfish, unforgiving kids you'd ever meet. So far it looks like they will have money in their adulthoods, but at what price?<br /><br />You know what's interesting to me? The more I think about Jesus the more I recognize that in my former days as a Christian I really wasn't following him. He had nothing and that was good enough. He taught forgiveness and grace. I embrace that more today than I ever did.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10530680372103907969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-83303740923075949412012-11-20T16:01:47.648-05:002012-11-20T16:01:47.648-05:00How is a market failure again? I am missing somet...How is a market failure again? I am missing something.Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14828361282326797453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-50088227788714944282012-11-20T15:30:57.873-05:002012-11-20T15:30:57.873-05:00You don't shop during Black Friday, but you do...You don't shop during Black Friday, but you do shop some time between Thanksgiving and Christmas. That's what I'm saying. Total expenditures are going to be the same and the number of hours required is proportional to the amount of sales. Not exactly probably, but close.<br /><br />Wal-Mart doesn't necessarily think more sales will occur overall. What they realize, correctly, is that if they go early they will get a larger portion of the total sales that are made, not that more sales OVERALL will occur. Some people have a Christmas budget and they spend it all on Black Friday. Once it is spent it is gone and if you weren't open at the time it was being spent you miss out. This is what happened to JC Penney last year. They decided they would not do this to their employees. They suffered for it. Not that TOTAL sales were down. It's just that a large portion of sales happen on Black Friday and if you aren't open at that time you don't get them. Now of course it's spilling into Gray Thursday. If you aren't open at that time you don't get them, but total sales overall from Thanksgiving to Christmas may not be affected.<br /><br />Like I said, I agree with you that it's not zero sum if it turns out more sales OVERALL between Thanksgiving and Christmas occur. I think what's happening though, and I think the article I linked to discusses this, is that retailers just want to get a larger share of those initial purchases by people that blow through their whole Christmas budget as soon as the stores open for Black Friday. If they all agreed to just push the date back the overall expenditures wouldn't change and employees wouldn't have to suffer. What we have here is a case where the winners are the ones most cruel towards their employees. If a store opens at 8 am on Thursday they will probably do best. Next year we will move further in that direction. This is a market failure.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10530680372103907969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-78537755143874486052012-11-20T14:59:06.125-05:002012-11-20T14:59:06.125-05:00Jon,
Yes, you read my scenario correctly. I also ...Jon,<br /><br />Yes, you read my scenario correctly. I also see we’re in agreement that being generous is a good thing, and someone should not be angry that a fellow worker is the benefactor of an employer’s generosity. Today in our society, this would probably result in a lawsuit or complaint by the union. But I’m actually trying to drive to something a bit different. Let’s slightly change the scenario. <br /><br />Suppose two fathers (father A and B of course) had worker “B” as sons. Father A tells his son “son, you’re going through a tough patch and your mother and I want to help you out. No need for you to have to spend time away from your family and work even more than you already do, here’s $15k. <br /><br />Father B tells his son “sorry you’re going through a tough patch, but I know you can make it through. No point in dwelling on the past, but hopefully you’ll save a bit more in the future and spend less so you don’t have to be away from your family as much”.<br /><br />In your estimation, would you think that the son that worked through paying off the $15k would end up being more likely, less likely, or have the same likelihood of experiencing financial difficulties again as compared to the other son?<br />Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09194529646410525617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-85611442961865644462012-11-20T14:54:29.142-05:002012-11-20T14:54:29.142-05:00I am with HP on this one Jon, I don't see the ...I am with HP on this one Jon, I don't see the wealthy standing in lines to save a couple bucks. From the media broadcasts I see - well I will keep my opinions tucked away, but it appears that they may be buying up a couple levels.Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14828361282326797453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-49865564505073504712012-11-20T13:55:22.838-05:002012-11-20T13:55:22.838-05:00Jon,
I posted my comment before I saw your second...Jon,<br /><br />I posted my comment before I saw your second comment. Let me address that now. <br /><br />You wrote: <i>My assumption when I made this post, which I think is close if not exact, is that people generally know how much they intend to spend through the holidays so the overall spending won't change, and so the overall amount of hours available doesn't really change either. </i><br /><br />This is not true. Many people (myself included) don't shop during black friday because of the crowds. Just too many people. Not worth the savings. Extend the hours of black friday, and you get less crowds. Less crowds will attract many people who otherwise would not go. Like myself.HispanicPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10220166238164432290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-56093673450792094802012-11-20T13:51:37.270-05:002012-11-20T13:51:37.270-05:00Jon writes, But the amount of working hours depen...Jon writes, <i> But the amount of working hours depends on the amount of sales made. More sales, more working hours, less sales, less working hours.</i><br /><br />I don't get you Jon. Please elaborate. This seems to be the core basis of our disagreement, so we need to understand it fully.<br /><br />Keep this in mind: First, no matter what the long term is, in the short term, this leads to more working hours. Can we atleast agree on that? So already, on a short term basis, it's a plus for the employees - atleast those who care more about making money.<br /><br />Second, I don't know how you could assume that this wouldn't result in more sales to Wal-Mart. <br /><br />Why do I say this? Well, first of all, why would Wal-Mart be doing this if they didn't think it would result in more sales? Certainly they must think so, and they are in a better position to judge than either of us. Then there is the fact that this is the BIGGEST sale of the year. Historically, people have died because the rush of shoppers is so large and the amount of time for the sell is so short. Historically, people camp out in front of these stores - yes, during Thanksgiving, making absolutely no money at all - just to get a small piece of the pie. Given such a situation, why would you assume net sales would be flat?<br /><br />In fact, you can make an argument that extending the black friday sales might result in more people spending Thanksgiving with family. The sale goes on longer, and there is less need to camp out in front to take advantage of the sales.<br /><br />Lastly, I dont care how you see it, you can't compare a net zero sum event with a net positive sum event. The two are FUNDAMENTALLY different.HispanicPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10220166238164432290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-10211544708605979542012-11-20T13:28:55.470-05:002012-11-20T13:28:55.470-05:00Again there is no law (that I know of) that you ca...Again there is no law (that I know of) that you can not have your Black Friday sale on November 1st? I think we are seeing the net result now - lowered prices (maybe not bottom basement prices) being offered the week leading up to Black Friday.<br /><br />A person can only be in 1 place at 1 time - if I want the 60" 3D TV, but also would like something else from another store I have to choose one or the other. By staggering the start times they are betting that they will get more traffic - its smart.Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14828361282326797453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-87388217735359734132012-11-20T13:24:05.198-05:002012-11-20T13:24:05.198-05:00Ahhh - the Tabacco companies profits went up, but ...Ahhh - the Tabacco companies profits went up, but what happened to the advertising industry as a result? With regulation you just took billions out of another industry instantly.<br /><br />You just puff'd your chest out about the fact that billions just got taken out of another industry by gov't hand.<br /><br />Good intentions, bad results.<br /><br />Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14828361282326797453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1899606766246433608.post-41411263465479815562012-11-20T13:20:05.684-05:002012-11-20T13:20:05.684-05:00HP, let me say that I do see your point that if we...HP, let me say that I do see your point that if we do have more working hours available this does help the people that need those hours. My assumption when I made this post, which I think is close if not exact, is that people generally know how much they intend to spend through the holidays so the overall spending won't change, and so the overall amount of hours available doesn't really change either. If that assumption is not correct, and it is possible that it is not, then it isn't really a market failure in the way I described it.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10530680372103907969noreply@blogger.com