Still, I can't complain, and I think it's interesting to notice that (according to my estimates) even though lightning has struck me (now twice) still I'm much better off having bought a used car instead of a new one.
I bought my Accord in '07 for $13K. I could have bought new of course and probably avoided the expensive repair, but at what cost? If I were to follow that same path today what would I be looking at? In other words suppose today I was again faced with the choice of buying a new car or a three year old car.
Here's my effort to run the numbers. This assumes that if I were to buy today I would need financing, like I would have to do if I bought a new car. What would I be looking at for a 5 year cost? Here's what I came up with. Note I have an annualized cost and cost over a 10 year period as well for some further comparisons below.
I've got full insurance coverage on both and a rough estimate of my total repair cost over the last 5 years (trans repair as well as new tires, new brakes, a few other maintenance items). Even though I'm assuming bad luck in terms of repairs I'd still be $13K ahead over a 5 year period, twice that over 10 years.
But let's compare also to what I actually experienced with my two cars.
There are costs not factored into this equation. When my van breaks down it's a hassle. When the heater doesn't work right it's irritating. The A/C doesn't work. What is that worth? Tough to say. These are subjective questions. For me though the choice is easy. When my vehicle breaks down I'll dry my tears with some $100 bills from my pile of $53K.
32 comments:
Dave Ramsey is huge advocate on buying used cars. It makes sense. A two to three year car is perfect age to get something reliable for a lot less.
"Unless you're filthy rich, you cannot afford a new car! New cars drop in value like a bag of rocks. A new car loses 60% of its value in the first four years. Save up money and pay cash for a used car.
It's much easier to save $400 a month (the average car payment) for 10 months and buy a used car than to sign up for a payment plan and pay thousands of extra dollars for several years! Remember, the purpose of a vehicle is to get you from A to B. When you are working, playing with your children or helping a friend, you are not thinking to yourself, "Man, I am so happy since I have a new car. Life is beautiful!" The key to happiness is not a new car, so don't pay for it like it is! ~ Dave Ramsey~
You are leaving one thing out: the back end.
Assuming the same reliability between two cars at birth, you can assume that the newer car is going to last you alot longer on the back end...thus increasing its value vs the used car.
This should dramatically decrease the gap.
HP Hmmm. I'm not that certain you are correct in that assumption. The best test is cost per mile travelled.
My 1992 Superroo while it hasn't all the refinements of a newer car it is easier and cheaper to fix . Added to the mix the old fashion high octane fuel it needs costs more as does the green tech to even up the polution output. All that included an ammortising all costs over 12 months including Purchase price.... and line for line comparison for us at a whopping 30% cheaper per Kilometer when compared to my son's latest model.
In the 'outback' (the bush, where the crows fly backwards to avoid dust in their eys and the flies are so big sheep the workers need titatium fly swats and wrist supports) they like the older vehicles because they are easily jury rigged in an emergency ..no computer controlled "nonesense" .
If you are on a back track 200- 800 miles from the nearest garage the last thing you need is a computer glitch.
If you hitched a ride to the next town by the time you got back it will have been stripped or some road train 32 wheeler with 3 trailers full of cattle will probebly wiped it out or it would be up to it's axel in bulldust(a fine red/soft dust from termites mounds and erosion. if it rained or a wind storm well good luck finding it again either washed away or sand blasted.
They tell me conditions are tough out there ;-)
HP, the value of the cars after 5 years is reflected in the line that reads "Value after 5 yrs". Notice that the newer car is worth more ($12K vs $9K). I subtract that value from the "Cost of ownership" to get "Net cost". What this analysis is doing is comparing what would happen if you bought a new car and sold it after 5 years vs buying a 3 year old car and also selling it after 5 years and upgrading to another now 3 year old car, so like a '10 Accord. I'm not going to do that. I'm keeping my '05 Accord and I think that will lead to even more savings, like what I've had with my van, but upgrading every 5 years to a used car is much better than upgrading to new.
But notice I did have to update the numbers because I had an error in my Excel formula. Now it's a $53K savings over 10 years instead of $76K.
For me, it's still more efficient if you buy a new car than a used car. You may pay less for an old and used car but maintenance-wise, it would cost you a whole lot more. I know this because I've been suffering from buying an old car when I could have just bought a new car instead.
Naomi Champy
But Naomi, is it really so bad that it offsets the expense associated with the purchase of the new car? Interest, higher insurance rates, general higher sticker price? As you can see I've had really bad luck with my cars too. Both have needed transmission rebuilds. Still I'm miles ahead of where I'd be if I bought new.
If your transmission went out and your engine had to be replaced I'd think you'd still be saving a lot of money. How bad is this car you're driving? Just think, a car payment is like $400/month. Do you really put that much into your car repairs?
All I am saying is that of course if you take a snapshot of X years and compare an old car that is mostly at the low end of its market value and compare it to a newer car that is still going down that market value slope, you will always get the result you want: old car better than new car.
But if you plan to own the cars until the wheels fall off, you should do an "end of life" comparison. Every car I have owned, I have kept until someone either stole it, crashed it, or in one instance, the real owner wanted it back (my dad).
I currently have an 02 Infiniti. Still driving great. Already replaced the transmission once. Pushing 200k miles and will replace the engine when it comes time. Nothing like a paid off car, IMHO.
My strategy: I try to buy a new-used car. Basically look for luxury cars that are not as popular as the most popular luxury cars: Infiniti, Audi cars like that. The benefit of this is you still get all the luxury benefits (comfort, goodies, yes status, quality, etc) without competing with the real spenders for the absolute top luxury cars (Lexus, Mercedez, BMW, etc).
Second, I weed out American made cars. They tend to break down more often. Plus, don't really want to pay the union premium.
Lastly, instead of buying new, I buy them 2 years old. This is after their steepest price drop point. It also benefits from being right after the time frame of a typical lease. People are returning them. Pick the right luxury car (non sports, non trendy, non American) and hopefully you get an elderly couples returned automobile. Still within warranty, still works great, just significantly cheaper.
Oh and, I dont buy off the dealer lot. I have a guy I go to that gets em on auction. I tell him which models and years and colors I am okay with and I just wait until one hits...pay him his $150 off the top and BAM, its mine.
I got lucky with my last one, it had scratches, nobody wanted to go through the hassle of repainting it. But my guy had contacts, I had contacts, and for a little bit more, I got a really nice Infiniti for significantly under kelly blue book. Still have it to this day.
I should have said that my total cost for that infiniti was less than what some of my friends paid for their bottom of the line new Honda Accord.
Yet that infiniti looked better, I got more compliments on it, had more goodies, was more comfortable to drive, I got less tickets in it, and of course, came with more BJ's from the ladies. Oh how I miss those single days!
If you buy correctly - especially in today's environment - you can swing new car deals where the depreciation is nul and void for the most part.
With that said the quality and inventory of used vehicles right now makes it really really hard to buy new. In fact - I was able to work a few deals over the last few months that helped get us in a fully loaded 2009 Eddie Bauer Ford Taurus X that had 50K miles on it that we had our eye on. They wanted $24.5k for it (Blue Book Certified Price), but I left them with a firm offer of $14K which they rejected for the most part, but kept my info and called every now and again to drop the offer as it sat in their lot.
About the same time I went to another dealer and offer them #9K for a 2008 Taurus X Limited they had on the lot (asking $17.5K) - 35 days later they took the offer. Then I took that car over to where the 09' Eddie Bauer we wanted was to get a recall fix done - they offered me $11K if I traded that it against the Eddie Bauer so I knew I was dealing with house money already - told them $12.5K on the trade and $16.5 K on the Bauer and they had a deal. It took them another 35-40 days (end of the month of course), but they called back and we made the deal. So we got a really nice rig worth over $20K easy for under $13k that should last us at least 10 years I suspect - that is good value there.
Point being - you can swing some killer deals if your patient and not in a position where you have to buy something.
Another example - same exact same thing happened with the RV - possibly better, no mostly better. Always look to buy RV's end of the year - after August specifically. Went to a bunch of places at the end of summer and we picked 5 used rigs and made an offer August 1st on all of them letting each dealership know it was first to our number wins - closest to our number come my Birthday Dec 28th also wins.
Got a call the Wednesday before the UM/OSU game from the delearship saying they wanted to take the deal and we went up Saturday (missed the game) to pick it up. We got that puppy for half the asking price - 2008 Jayco with 28,000 miles - it is a sweet sweet unit. Ironically that thing has less miles then both our everyday cars.
Interesting side bar - 2 units got sold before November anyhow, but the 2 other dealerships did call to take the deal - one called about the 15th of December and the other called a day before my Birthday. Patience grass hopper.
Yeah, your Infinity is a sweet car. When did you ride me around in that thing? 2004 or 2005? Something like that.
But yeah, I agree with your points. I do know people that kind of get paranoid as the car gets a little older thinking that upgrading every 5 years or so is for the best. They know it's more expensive probably, but do they know how much more expensive? Pretty major as you can see. But there's the BJ factor. We could load the value of that into my spreadsheet.
Chad, next time I buy a car you are coming with me as my negotiator. Sounds like you really pulled of some nice deals. Waiting is tough sometimes. You think you've found the right car and it's hard to be willing to let it go if the deal is anything less than amazing, but you obviously were willing and it's paid off for you.
JC - your the guy who outlines (fairly successfully) how advertisements and perception play huge roles in how/why consumers buy - foolishly. No different here - if you let them make you feel like your deal is the best ever your tempted to impulse buy. I do nothing special - except I put the sale on the board for them. It's there looking at them everyday so when the time comes for the Manager or the sales guy to get a big fat bonus with one more sale they know where to come and get it!
jon,
this is way off topic but read this
http://www.perlsteinlab.com/blog/postdocalypse-now
Consider the plight of Science degrees engineers et al driving cabs etc.
While all the jobs go off shore i.e. software development, help desk etc.
then consider America the land of future? Vulture capitalism unleashed.
Hmmmm?
Wouldn't it be nice if every one bought their vehicles in intelligent ways?
But it is doubtful that dealers would survive? or would they?
the common reasoning as expressed by Chad is that he got his vehicle by cutting down the dealer's margin.(that's business) But if *everyone* did that one of two things things logically follow.
1. The dealer broadly speaking wouldn't survive particularly say an interest rate hike (people tend not to buy so many vehicles). In capitalist terms his 'floor plan' would make it unviable too expensive to maintain. He or the finance company could Higher(profits) elsewhere. You can follow that one up the the line.
2. vehicle prices remain stable for every one no deals except perhaps the end of model run out.in which case all the previous veicles include a loading to offset the discounts.
New but related topic. As chad should know are generally sold by less rational means... A range of selling techniques and marketing.
So in effect Chad is piggy backing (exploiting) other peoples' ignorace lack of skills or emotionalism or in the case of the first vehicle the buyers circumstances/disadvantage.i.e. possibly lack of marketing skills.
The next issue is a little less conveniently self congratulatory.
That is that the major Vehicle manufacturers/wholesalers/dealers are
well aware that even Chad can be emotionally got at (manipulated).
Jon you talk about a sweet ride ...that is an emotional response not a need per se. I am of course you are commenting on more than the functionality of the vehicle.
HP You too are to some degree acting on emotions in your case (ideology/belief).
Having 'owned' a Roles Royce, top of line Mercedes/BMW, a Jaguar,a Chrysler, a Studebaker , ordinary Fords and GM vehicles and Subaru(s)(or is that Subarai?). I can comfortably say that based on figures I've seen the Owner Pays a premium for 'image'and 'alleged quality'
Even the roller shit it self at an inconvenient moment and don't even ask how much a service cost. As for a headlight ....buying a small country comes to mind or so it seems now . Likewise every time the other 'luxury' vehicles went for a service it was at least 3-8 times more than the ordinary ones.
The other and final point is I've seen $600k mining trucks sold to a board because they were all sat behind the wheel of one in the car park with driving experts. Big toys for big boys in effect. In sales terms 'emotional involvement'. The other companies just provided brochures.
I sold a $900k (equivalent) computer on a personalised skin ($200) that's called 'small decision forcing the larger one' or 'easiest decision' The point Chad is not war stories but practical examples of the power of emotional decision making which drives the vast majority of sales even your choice of vehicle...your emotions were manipulated.
As I've said countless times that we are more often manipulated in our purchasing decisions by 'flashing lights' ….meaningless unnecessary features that actual substance. Most model changes are cosmetic rather than substantive i.e. grill ,lights, colors, new dashboard, belief stripes (it becomes a sports model) ... nick nacks !
To quote my friend Ken, you're such a buzzkill, Ex. Here we are getting along and you have to come in and try to get us back on topic. I do agree with most of what you say. True, these war stories are beside the point. I know that, but on the other hand we so often get off the point in areas of disagreement it was kind of nice to get off point and just agree, so I was ready to go with it.
The environmental issues are very important. What I'm kind of saying here is the environmentally better approach (don't upgrade your car every 5 years) is not only good for the planet. It's great for your wallet. Chad and HP are doing the wise thing here, so while their motivations might be different from mine at least the outcome isn't.
But as far as Chad getting an amazing deal on a car, I'm not too worried about a car dealer in the US. I agree with you that the point here is not to brag about who gouged the most, but also remember that gouging the Bangladeshi sweat shop worker is one thing (which is how Wal-Mart owners make their billions) and gouging a probably at least middle class owner of a car dealer, or maybe gouging Ford stock holders, is another. The right acts like there's no difference. Low balling the sweatshop worker to where he can only feed a few members of his family and not all is no different from low balling a mega corporation. Need is something that should never be considered, because that would make you a Stalinist. You and I know that's different.
On the other hand if Chad is low balling a family in poverty that is selling a car and saying "Woo-hoo, you have no other option so I'll just wait you out until your bellies are empty enough" well, that's obviously something that I would find abhorrent, and I don't want his negotiating abilities in that case.
The one question for you Chad is this. Personally for me time is very important. You find the right car and you low ball and wait a month you risk someone else buying this car and now you have to start over. Yeah, you'll save money in the end, but not time. It seems for you that accumulation of money is more important than your time, and that sounds quite strange because it sounds like you already have a lot of money. VP of a company, a wife that is some sort of high level executive. Why do you want to risk losing all that time? It seems like you aren't going to have a problem acquiring more and more money, but everyone has a problem acquiring more time. Basically you have another 45 years and you're done. There's no adding on to that when you lose it.
I'm not rich, but I found the right car and I just grabbed it. No sitting around for a month just so I can have a slightly larger bank account. I've got things I want to do for myself, like learn a foreign language. Money isn't going to allow me to acquire it (for the most part). I need to put in the time. So fighting tooth and nail to save another couple of thousand dollars is going to deprive me of the time that I want to use to invest in myself.
Speaking of which, I need to hit the books.
JC - That is absolutely a consideration. To set the record straight, we certainly are not rich - we are doing fine, but daycare is a killer right now and we have to pay for all the takers as well. With that said I do value keeping as much of our earnings as possible.
For the cars/RV situation there was no immediate need for either so we could be patient - very patient in those cases. For those markets deals can be had for a variety of reasons and I do like the negotiation process as well.
For other things that have a far smaller ticket price, I do research on pricing to make sure I get good value, but the sticker is the sticker.
Houses - now that is another area where big deals can be made and negotiating is in play. Even this house - we are leasing it - I got $300/month off the asking price because we agreed to pay the first year in advance - saved us $3,600 so a good deal. Sometimes people are afraid to ask for a better price for some reason.
As far as my time - well it really didn't take that much time really. We do our research like everyone does - we test drive and we find the model/style we like so that part is all over. From that point we simple leave the sales staff a written offer - show them the funds are secured/in hand so they don't feel like your pulling their leg then you go home and forget about it really so there is no more time being taken from me any longer. Maybe a quick email or check on the net to see if the car/RV is still there, but that takes a few minutes is all.
Jon
my appologies, it wasn't intended.
my reference to "war stories" was as quoted aimed at Chad who has made the point int the past aout me go in on about irrelevances of 'The life and times of examinator'.
I didn't think the conversation was off topic at all. All your 'war stories' are part of the context, the rest is meaning poor without it. They go to the understanding of the people.
To me they were personal examples of how we are emotionally traped in the Vulture capitalism mindset. Also how it clouds out objectivity on the reasons why we buy a certain vehicle.(the human part)
BTW the 'roller' was more like a concocted plot using balloon payments to avoid a attouney's(I knew) soon to be exwife claiming it as joint property. it was 'sold back to him before the ballooon payment and after the property settlement. I was 20 at the time. I jumped at it "as a Girl magnet"(which it was)I needed all the help I could get.
PS the seats aren't a comfort improvement for sex.
The benz end the BMW were corporate mandated 'image' thing.
The trick is being aware of it and not deluding our selves it is by deluding ourselves we are most vulnerable to outside manipulation. None of it was criticism so no need for justification (chad).
As for being Buzz kill clearly I missed the queues to me I run on all levels at once.
With that I go and work the garden. *&^%$@#!
Chad, regarding time invested to score good deals, take for instance the purchase of my home. I think my wife looked at about maybe 40 houses before we found the one that we thought would work for us (the right combination of features and price). If you are going to make a low ball offer and leave your number you may get it, but on the other hand it may sell to someone else, and now you have to go start looking at houses again. So the writing up of an offer of course is not the time consuming part. It's risking losing the house that is the right fit for you. Or car. The research is the time consuming aspect. You need to take some time to make sure that the car you want to buy is not a rip off. You have to drive from location to location looking at different vehicles. I'm just a lowly engineer, not a VP with another VP for a wife. My wife is at home. But risking losing the vehicle I've researched that is a good fit would be tough. I guess I'd rather pay the premium than risk the time.
I think when I was young I was way more interested in money than time. I was working as an engineer and was thinking, how can I make more money? Free-lance engineering. Heck, I could deliver pizzas. This sort of thing. I guess that has changed for me now.
For instance, I was injured in a bicycle accident this last year and was out of work for 3 weeks. I couldn't do much but be by myself. I wasn't going anywhere, couldn't even leave the seat I was in except to use the bathroom. So I was just sitting there with my thoughts, also browsing the web. I look back on that time and realize it was one of the most productive times of the year for me. Being with my own thoughts, thinking about the way I live my life, I did a lot of evaluation, and I have to say that my life has changed from that point going forward. Time is everything. This is what life is. So I'm getting to the point in my life where the monetary payout has to be pretty large in exchange for my time.
Ex, my comments were a bit tongue in cheek, there's no need to apologize. I loved your "war stories" comment. You are quite right, the point here is not to strut and display our manhood by showing how awesome we are at negotiating. This is about how the world we live in encourages waste and poor decisions that harm us. So if I overpaid for a car and in the process helped a poor family, the principle still applies. Drive it for a long time, it's a wise financial decision regardless of the purchase price.
Value has IMHO two aspects.
That which is objectively arrived at.
i.e. its functionality ...enough seats for ankle biters assorted dogs/ children's friends, stuff carrying capabilities, does it fit in the garage if applicable, the state of the vehicle (safety). PRACTICAL CONSIDERATIONS.
Then the financial ones particularly the cost per mile which includes projected repairs, tires, parts and fuel, insurance. Personally I prepare a weighted check list for each short listed vehicle I'm considering.
In this way if I'm at a dealer most of their tricks pressure or flimflam fall off the table.
BTW this is similar to the the prepared weighted check list of skills I used in employing staff at interview.
It isn't fool proof but it does minumize the chance of being flim flamed.
BTW I used that technique to buy major appliances too.
You'd be amazed how it stops the sales flim flam and when I ask technical question on my list you should see the panic in the salesperson's face, it's almost a treat on its own. (I know, it's sort of mean)
They hate losing control of a sale.
My wife is well versed in the technique and shuts down politely, attempts at manipulated sales pitches. From a feminist perspective she is empowered (although she is unimpressed by the notion that she should conform to their stereo type. But that is another story). Years of living with me she's heard all the wrinkles before. If the sales person continues she names the technique then say can we get back to MY purchasing criteria now? When the salesperson looks to me I just shrug my shoulders and smile internally. Her purchases are to her criteria , I'm along for the ride.
War story: You should have been present when we bought a Vacuum Cleaner/ carpet cleaner. It was a treat. The sales person (female) ignored me and pitched to her even to a “close” at which time she said “why ask me ? He's the one that vacuums he's the one who has to be impressed/satisfied” well she start again on me and when she came to the washing the carpets I said with a mischievous grin “ why ask me that part is her domain” . Moral of the story the saleswoman made assumptions and talked not asked the client the right/any questions. Totally frustrated she retreated to the manager who pompously challenged us why we were wasting her time! At that point I calmly explained that his sales person didn't try and qualify who and why they were buying . That to me is a badly trained sales person and as such given your attitude we are sorry to waste YOUR time and we'll buy a machine elsewhere. He panicked and backed down and then did the sale properly and discovered that the machine the woman was on about wasn't adequate. Eventually we bought a far more expensive but more appropriate unit. Moral: Sales person need to listen to the client particularly like us we know what functions (needs) we have and they don't features (bells and whistles ) are irrelevant to us unless they serve OUR PURPOSE. In Chad's and almost every one else's world emotions rule. In short people buy on whim not on NEED.
BTW, Chad, a quick comment on how tough it is for you to pay for the "takers". Taxes for the rich are down to the lowest level they've been in a long time. Pretty flat for normal people, but down drastically since the 80's on the wealthy (the so called producers). Now is not the time to complain. It's the best it's ever been. On right wing theory of course we should be livining in an age of incredible prosperity as we've allowed the so called "producers" to keep so much more of what they've "earned". If you call what Mitt Romney does "earning". I call it sitting and doing next to nothing, but call it what you will. This should be an age of prosperity. Despite all the technological advancements, the longer hours worked for Americans, the increase in productivity, what we're seeing is records in severe poverty. It's rather strange, don't you think? We used to take a lot more from the "producers" and give more to the "takers" and things were improving much faster. Why do you think the gains have stalled, even regressed a bit, over the last 30 years?
Here's an image on tax rates by income group.
http://www.mymoneyblog.com/images/0901/nyt_tax.gif
Jon,
This vid says most of it.http://billmoyers.com/segment/susan-crawford-on-why-u-s-internet-access-is-slow-costly-and-unfair/
Susan says it all when talking about the cartel and the different mind sets
"businesses are not in it to supply a service but to make money"
If information is king, and few of us doubt that one clearly see this attitude reflecting through the Vulture capitalists in all that they do. The losers are ? The people
AUST is about to go fibre and guess what it'll be priced at $40 per month.
Given it is the size of the US therefore the miles it has to go and less than 1/10 the population it makes you wonder doesn't it.
And guess what? the conservatives want to cut the access back!
Thank you for sharing this post. I found it very informative and interesting. I am currently shopping for used cars in los angeles and am seeking advice for buying used. I think I want to go with Honda because of how reliable and dependable they are. You make a good point when you discuss the depreciation of a new car as soon as you drive it off the lot. Buying used really does make more sense!
Cars that are extensively used can absolutely wear out its mechanical parts. Having a transmission rebuild could be the best solution to put down the numbers of your expenses. It can operate efficiently and will result in a long-lasting transmission. Using of transmission oil is a good maintenance, and it can function effortlessly.
Jae Gunderson
Hello, Jon. How are you doing? If you don’t mind, I’d like to jump in this conversation. For me, used cars are more efficient than having a new one. If you think your car only needs minor adjustments or replacements and could last long then go for it. But, if you think that car will be a burden for the near future, then I would suggest buying a new one.
- Ashely Redden
Used Cars that have a lot of mileage on are prone to mechanical breaking down at any time. I think to rebuild the transmission will cost more than buying another good used car.
cash for cars Toronto
I once bought a used car but then after only around a year, it started to break down a lot. I then decided to part ways with it through New Jersey Lemon Law and got some cash out of it. I think I'm going to buy new from now on.
Chase, I think that's not a bad approach provided you aren't routinely upgrading in order to have the latest and greatest technology. Bluetooth, Pandora, WiFi, these kinds of things are of course great, but what I see is people that think they need to have that stuff and they don't really understand the price penalty involved.
I'm faced with this question once again with my van. Some strut related work could cost me about $500. I can hold off on it for now because it's not urgent, but my mechanic was surprised I would even consider it since the car is so old. It's not worth much. But it's not a lemon. It does break down in a way that reflects normal wear and tear, and so far for me maintaining it in this way has saved me many thousands of dollars over an upgrade to a new car.
nice cars after used that is nice Cars that are extensively used can absolutely wear out its mechanical parts.
used cars
Second hand cars are being used by most of the students. This comes in low cheap price and hence it is already a used car we can bet set to the conditions of the car and use it accordingly. There are lots of shops available which sell Second Hand Cars In Hyderabad.
There definitely can be a lot of benefits when it comes to buying a used car. Something that is really interesting is what you mentioned about how you were better off with a used car than a new one. I never really saw myself as someone that liked being in a car where I'm the first person that has driven it. Thank you for sharing your story. http://www.lynchtoyotaofauburn.com/Used-Inventory.aspx
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