I went to lunch today with two friends. One Muslim the other Christian. Great guys. We like to do this every now and then. Have some rip roaring religious debate. There are a few other Christians a few other Muslims and a few other atheists that are often involved, but it was just the three of us this time.
We were talking about healing miracles. The Muslim tells us that he prays for good things to happen but doesn't put emphasis on healings for specific illnesses. The Christian does of course.
The Christian has a tough one for me to explain. He knows a lady. Her former husband, now deceased, in fact had died and come to life again on 3 different occasions. I offer some critical facial expressions, but my friend presses on. Here's what happened on one occasion. The man arrived at the hospital and after repeated electric shock pulses and efforts to resuscitate he was pronounced dead. Toe was tagged. They put him on the gurney and took him to a place where they could temporarily store dead bodies, like those drawers that you see in movies. 12 hours later his wife arrives at the hospital. "Where's my husband?" "I'm sorry ma'am, he's passed." "No he hasn't." "Yes, I'm afraid he has. You need to make arrangements." "No, he's not dead. Take me to the body." "OK, fine, but believe us he's dead."
So she is shown the body and speaks to her husband. "Wake up honey. There's work for you to do." Husband coughs. They pull him out. He's alive. A nurse observing faints, cuts her head, and it requires 6 stitches.
And that's not the end. The lady proceeded throughout the hospital to heal various sick people. Doctors were baffled and all converted to Christianity.
This friend of mine is very intelligent and well placed professional where I work. Confident as can be. So my response was simple. "Friend, everything you just told me is complete crap." Or words to that effect. Where's the evidence? "You're going to meet the woman herself. Her husband is passed now." "Nope. I don't care about the woman. I want to meet the doctors." "You got it. We're going to get in contact with the doctors and nurses. We're going to get the best evidence you could ever ask for. The people are right over here in Sterling Heights. So are you going to admit that Jesus is Lord if I get the doctors and nurses, etc?"
Hmm. Well technically, I told him, God might exist and perform this miracle and Jesus might not be Lord. But this is all crap.
At one point he'd pulled out a $20 bill as if we would be making a bet, but then that didn't happen, so on the way to the car I asked if he was thinking of placing a bet. Sure, he'd bet. "What do you think? $100?" "Sure, I'll bet you $100." Well that's getting weird. I don't want to take $100 from my colleague. Maybe I should have. But I said $10 will get you $100. I'll take $10 from you. Nope. He doesn't want to take my money.
So here's what we settled on. I need to wear a big blazing shirt with the words "Jesus Is Lord" every Friday for a month at work. I told him I didn't think that was acceptable per the dress code, but he says he'll clear it with management. Yeah, that's fine. And I'll also have to have a blog post entitled "Jesus Is Lord."
I'm not too worried about that.
25 comments:
Why would Jesus save this man from death?
Ignoring for the moment that even if any part of the story has any semblance of truth we are still a long way from showing that Jesus (or a God) is responsible.
Jon,
Did you get the particulars as to what happened? The problem with bets like this is there can be too much wiggle room. For example, if they are claiming 12 hours, to win it has to be 12 hours. Not 12 minutes. I fear anything presented will not be quite as dramatic as stated, but they will claim, “SOMEthing happened” and demand to be declared the winner.
True, but here's the thing. I don't even care about winning and losing so much. We didn't even really decide on what would happen if he was wrong. I have my obligations and I'll fulfill them. But here's what he has to do. Talk to the actual doctors. Look into claims. I tell ya, when he told me this story he was entirely convinced. And he was somewhat shocked at my confident response that it was all bull. "Why would this person lie to me?" Well, maybe she did, maybe she didn't. But you are going to discover that what she told you wasn't true in any case. He's going to discover the virtue of skepticism. And he's going to understand a little better why someone like me would doubt the resurrection of Jesus. He spoke first hand with the person involved in the miracle. If he can so easily become so confident based on only this, how much more these ancient superstitious illiterate people?
So here's an update by the way. He called the woman and told her that he really needs to dig into it because this just might lead someone to Christ. Heck, that's not wrong. If everything he said is true that's going to tip the scales toward supernaturalism for me at a minimum. Her first response is "Great!! Bring him over, we'll have a barbecue and I'll tell him all about it." My friend told her that wasn't good enough. He needed to dig in to the evidence and provide that for me, so he's asking her to work with him tracking down the facts, putting him in touch with the doctors. She tells him several doctors were present and nurses. So he's off working with her tracking this down for me.
Get the medical records first. No need to talk to the actual doctors, nurses, etc. If this was her husband, they should be readily obtainable (if she didn’t have them already.)
Out of selfishness, see if I can review them, too.
' Doctors were baffled and all converted to Christianity.'
Gosh , the number of non-Christians in America is amazingly high, as conversions are still happening.
'12 hours later his wife arrives at the hospital. "Where's my husband?" "I'm sorry ma'am, he's passed."'
12 hours to contact the next of kin? Who only gets contacted by arriving at the hospital?
What hospital does not inform the next of kin?
Here is another miraculous healing in the Elizabeth Ward of St. Thomas's Hospital London.
It has been published in a million selling Christian apologetic book 'Questions of Life'.
It truly is a miracle as St Thomas does not have an Elizabeth Ward
Actually it seems St. Thomas might have an Elizabeth Ward after all. I will have to check.
So was any evidence forthcoming?
Well, I'll post an update. I don't have the hard evidence, but I do have claims that the evidence will be forthcoming.
He's spoken with 4 doctors, all of whom are prepared to go to lunch with me and discuss the particulars. Another thing is that for the 3 days subsequent to the resurrection event this lady went throughout the hospital healing people. All of these doctors became Christians.
So the assertions remain very bold and I'm told the evidence is coming together. I do want the documentation, not testimony from doctors. I've told him this and he knows it. He's sort of suggested that not all of the most impressive claims are contained in the medical records, but the toe was tagged and the coroner received the dead body and there is documentation for that.
Very impressive sounding so far. We shall see.
"this lady went throughout the hospital healing people."
Really? Does she still have this ability or was it a temporary thing?
I am being a bit sarcastic but I am genuinely curious if this lady had healing powers, how did she get them? If there were temporary, why?
Any word on why it took 12 hours to notify the next of kin? (Actually, it seems she wasn't notified.)
And there must have been a death certificate,if the coroner was notified.
I'm not sure of the legal requirements, but I doubt if a coroner is always notified of a death in Britain.
Are those drawers you see in movies air-tight?
I take it that this never made the local papers.
'Man raised from dead'. You would think it would be a headline somewhere...
Yeah, exactly. I'm thinking we should just check the newspapers for proof, but nothing so far. I'm not sure why 12 hours was needed. I think he said there is a death certificate, so I'll try to get that.
Don't think the drawers are air tight, but they might as well have been since it doesn't matter to God, right?
Do want company on this lunch date, or are you winging it?
I'll be good. I promise.
I would love to have company. I've asked my friend if we can work that out, but haven't heard back. I emailed him. I'll let you know.
Yep, you are welcome to join us DagoodS. I'll keep you in the loop.
Thank you, Jon
How long does it take to verify a miracle?
Supposedly these meetings were going to all be lined up by the end of this month, but it seems that didn't happen.
How astonishing that no evidence was produced.
I thought Christians were not supposed to lie.
He did say about a week ago that the week of the 13th would be it. So this week. He still acts like this will happen.
Any news on this?
My friend busily whisked by me today and said he needed to talk but he was on the run. He's actually really busy. Travels a lot. I thought he might have an update for me, but he never got a chance to stop by.
Any news?
No news? Will you be forced to admit Jesus is Lord or what?
There is no need of confusion - Jesus does miracles. I have seen many miracles and even demon possessed people crying in the church meeting from my childhood (My father was a pastor). I heard them saying they can't sit here in the presence of Jesus...
It was an amazing declaration from demons.
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