Tuesday, April 3, 2012

The Lazy and The Hard Working

Who else on Facebook sees a lot of these posts from right wing friends that make jokes about how Obama wants to take from the hard working and give to the lazy?

I assume it's usually referring to Obama Care, the only major monetary redistribution scheme that I can think of from Obama. Poor people can't afford to go to the doctor. So Obama has some government subsidy for them. And that has to be paid for. Obviously the poor wouldn't be able to pay. So the rich would pay more. The rich are paying the least amount in taxes as a % of their income than they have since prior to the Great Depression. But it's still not fair. The rich are hard working.

Working poor would enjoy this wealth transfer. Facebook friends and family object. OK. But let's just take a look at these lazy people. According to your right wing friends the following people are lazy:



Now we will look at some rich people who are also doing what you would expect them to be doing as part of their job.



Intuit CEO Steve Bennett lines up a birdie putt


David Koch attends a gala



Some poor people are lazy and have nobody to blame but themselves. And many many rich people worked very hard and in even my view deserve their riches. But by and large what we are talking about when we say that the poor should be afforded the luxury of a doctor visit, and since they can't pay the rich should, we are talking about people that work very hard.

For all I know the Intuit CEO may work very hard. But it's also true that a lot people in super high income groups do what is easy compared to picking peppers. And there are many capitalists that make more money than typical CEO's and they earn there money by doing nothing but cashing dividend checks that result from the work done by others. Today Mitt Romney falls into this category.

In many cases the poor are working harder than the rich. Anybody that works works harder than Mitt Romney. So let's remember who we are talking about when we talk about the lazy poor. Let's also remember that not all rich people work.

23 comments:

Paul said...

Hey Jon (or HP, or anyone else)-

W/ regards to this

Some poor people are lazy and have nobody to blame but themselves

Do you know of any statistics from a reliable/respected source that has data on the percentage of poor people that would fall in this category?

Jon said...

I do not know of any and I suppose it would be really difficult to measure, since it's a subjective assessment. Right wingers I know like to pretend that the majority of the poor are directly and wholly responsible for their plight.

Do you think it's fair to say that some people have nobody to blame but themselves?

Paul said...

Do you think it's fair to say that some people have nobody to blame but themselves?

I do. I would like to know the facts.

A few weeks back on an episode of Bill Maher he had film maker Alexndra Pelosi on the show. In her segment She showed some video she had taken showing people who one could reasonable say are free loaders. In general terms my sympathies do not lie with these people and I think the system should be set up (fixed) to prevent this abuse. I think liberals in general (and I think mostly do) should be against this type of abuse.

My current inclination is to think that the free loaders are a minority withing the "poor" population but I really do not know. That is not to say there aren't a lot of them - one is too many. But I also think that for practical reasons having *some* free loaders may be a price I am willing to pay. Sort of a technocratic thing, I think.

Sheldon said...

The overwhelming number of "the poor" are working poor. There are plenty of rich people who depend on their labor to make them rich. They may also work hard at figuring out how to squeeze more labor productivity out of working people, or not. Actual "free loaders" are probably statistically insignificant in the grand scheme of things. The real "free loaders" are the rich.

HispanicPundit said...

The comments about lazy people usually refer to those getting unemployment or welfare, or even, in some cases disability...in other words, people who dont work.

Paul said...

HP -

The comments about lazy people usually refer to those getting unemployment or welfare, or even, in some cases disability...in other words, people who dont work.

Your comment comes across, to me at least, as implying that someone who is receiving these benefits is probably lazy. As opposed to, say, receiving unemployment because they have been layed-off or receiving welfare because they do not earn enough.

Is it your opinion/view that the typical person receiving unemployment is lazy? Same question for welfare.

Note - use of "welfare" is an umbrella term

Chad said...

I find this to be one of the most interesting discussions thus far.

To be honest, I really am not entirely clear what your advocating or arguing here. I absolutely loved your picture selections which are a gross miss representation on so many levels. Your showing an end result of hard work, discipline, dedication both personally and professionally for those you consider wealthy. Then you have chosen to show the current situation for people who have decided to be a part of the non skilled labor force. Then your words - thought that violins with a sad song would start playing and a voice over was going to come on - 'while the rich golf, the poor work 27 hrs a day, in holy socks, until their fingers bleed just to see a hack doctor in the back streets to get some medicine for her sick child and she returns back to their home on the streets where she opens her last can of beans for the month - rationing what they have until she gets paid $55 for her 80 hr work week". LOL LOL

I call Bull Sh*t. Here is what I see when I look at that young lady who appears to be a cleaning person. I see someone who entered into a non skilled labor position who I can only hope is taking evening classes in business or hotel management and is in the first stages of a potentially very rewarding career. Will it be a tough road to the top - hell yes and you bet that will make her stronger. She may have to work two jobs, she may have to work at and in places she does not like, but with discipline and hard work she can one day run the hotel that she currently is cleaning. The only one stopping her from doing that is her - I see a women that one day has the opportunity to be golfing with that group, at a banquet fund raising and donating to a worthy cause and I see a women that one day will be able to hire Mitt Romney's company to expand her wealth as they are supposed to do.

I am sure you see something completely different - an oppressed poor women who works so hard for so little and blah blah and that is too bad you do.

Chad said...

I speak passionately on this because of my personal experiences. You see my wife has a Master Degree with her name on it over the mantle, I have a GED. Once I stopped pointing the finger at others and began pointing the finger at me, I realized that I needed to develop or cultivate a skill set (since I could not fall back on a degree) that employers would desire. I took my last $150 and went to a sales seminar then I bought a suit and went out and applied to over 50 places. I sold myself, my hard work and willingness to learn and I sold the fact that I was opened to be over used and under paid because I believed in me. Since then and over the 16 years I have been in the labor force, I have been promoted 13 times. I started by making $6.75/hr (worked a 2 PT jobs as well) then I proceeded to out work and out hustle everyone which earned me a key position in 7 months at $8.25/hr. 6 months later I was offered an Asst Managers position that had a salary of $22,000 and after helping to turn around a bad store was giving the Managers Position 5 months after that - the youngest Store Manager in company history I might add making $30,000/yr.

I got married, spent money unwisely and back slid a bit for a couple years - got divorced and once again hit a bit of a career bottom when I met my wife today. A women with a Masters Degree who was serving me beer on a Wednesday night at a bar - her 3rd job as it turns out since she was also going through a divorce. Worked at Eddie Bauer full time then PT at the bar 3 nights and at Pet Smart as a cashier/stock person the other 3 or 4 nights. She lit a brand new fire under my butt - here is women who has decided that she will not fail and I loved it. I got my crap back together, investigated some companies in the area and found one I was passionate about - sports - and walked into the front door and offered to work for free since they were not hiring at the time. The founder was am Ex College Football Coach who shook my hand, said to show up the next day. Received a check for $100/week for 'consulting' the company until I got my opportunity to really show what I could do. I put together a 45 page action plan that I presented to the President who hired me full time nearly on the spot at $20k. 3 years and several promotions later I was promoted several times and was eventually named Head Software Engineer - with ZERO experience in Engineering or software programming. I was in charge of a team of both. My software designs are still being used today www.digital scout.com FYI.

My wife and I pushed each other professionally, she absolutely hated the fact that I found continued success without the academic pedigree she has. When she got a great new opportunity which required us to move to Chicago we went. When CBS Sportsline bought the company I worked for I decided it was time for a career change.

Chad said...

Soo. The story continues - now in Chicago, I decided it was time to move in a new direction. A neighbor told me about an entry level position at a tubular steel company he worked for - I applied was offered the job at $24k and once again I started at the bottom of the rung. In 9 months I earned a $10k raise. 9 months after that I was promoted to Inside Sales Manager (quite the scandal) with another $10k raise plus I was added to the bonus pool. Prior to leaving that company I was earning more money than some of the Outside Sales people there. When 2009 hit and other companies were drowning, I was able to maintain and even expand profit margins even though units sold were significantly down. I was also instrumental/involved in directing ownership in a new direction that proved to be extremely profitable. When the VP of the company decided to leave and go in his own direction I was the very first person he called. Once again I took a huge pay cut and started at the bottom, but I believed in the vision. In October of 2009 we signed on to represent our first company. This company ended 2009 with $4.7 million in sales. We hit $26 million in 2011 and we are currently on pace to eclipse $34 million this year.

We now employee 10 and we are looking for number 11. We represent 7 producing mills (4 US, 1 India and 2 Korea) so our scope and reach continue to grow. As it has been all my career, I was recently promoted to Vice President of the company.

So when I look at that picture I see a women capable of running the company she works for if she is committed to success. If she does nothing to improve her skill set then she is going to have a fairly difficult time enjoying certain luxuries, but that is and will be all on her!

Jon said...

Here is what I see when I look at that young lady who appears to be a cleaning person. I see someone who entered into a non skilled labor position who I can only hope is taking evening classes in business or hotel management and is in the first stages of a potentially very rewarding career. Will it be a tough road to the top - hell yes and you bet that will make her stronger. She may have to work two jobs, she may have to work at and in places she does not like, but with discipline and hard work she can one day run the hotel that she currently is cleaning.

OK, so with that in mind here's the question. Is she lazy?

Because on FB Obama wants to transfer some wealth from the rich to the poor. The rich pay for her doctor visit. On FB people say that Obama wants to take from the hard working and give to the lazy. Take from Mitt Romney and give to this cleaning lady. That means that she's lazy. Does she look lazy?

My point here is simple. Look at that kid in the field. Look at the rest of the people hauling vegetables and picking them. Is that laziness? If Obama gets his way the rich could pay and these people could benefit. So for right wing people that makes them lazy.

Oppose Obama Care if you like, but don't call these people lazy. If you want to call someone lazy, talk about Mitt Romney. The guy makes money sleeping. You can say it's just. I think it isn't. In any case this is how he makes money. So why is the cleaning lady called lazy and Mitt Romney is called hard working?

Chad said...

I do not know a single business owner, free market capitalist or the most Right Winger out there that would look at that young lady and say - your lazy - your falling into the Liberal trap. Where is your photo of the mother with 5 kids (4 different daddy's) sitting on the porch witing for her welfare check? How about the picture of my Liberal neighbor who is right now on week number 58 of unemployment who has utilized every program possible to get as much 'free' stuff as he can although he has been offered jobs - he would rather golf and go the full 99 weeks than to work. How about showing the photos of all those Occupy jerk offs who live in their momma's basements who went to school for 8 years to get a degree in Women's Studies in Africa who wonder why they don't have a job?

No sir, me and my friends on the Right would respect that young lady - we would all do what we could to advance her career assuming she was a good and loyal employee and we would gladly pay into unemployment to cover her in case something did happen where she would be in need.

Jon said...

I do not know a single business owner, free market capitalist or the most Right Winger out there that would look at that young lady and say - your lazy

I bet you do. I see them all the time. The post at FB that inspired this was from a relative that had a picture of Obama wanting to take a child's legos. He says "Wow, looks like you worked hard. Why don't I take half of what you have and give it to those that have been napping."

The picture is a reference to Obama Care. In the analogy Obama is giving things to nappers. OK, let's look at who will be receiving these benefits from Obama Care. Farm workers. Sewing machine operators. Janitors. The very girl you see pictured. According to my FB relative where would this girl fit into the analogy? Isn't she being portrayed as the napper?

And isn't it a fact that really Mitt Romney is the napper. He's the one that makes money from napping. If this girl isn't scrubbing the floors and emptying the trash she doesn't get paid. But Romney gets paid and does nothing. It's rather perverse that this girl is portrayed as lazy.

Chad said...

I think your straight goofy my friend, but hey go for it.

Since you've spun off the deep end again - let me say this and lets be really honest here. Even if Obama Care is not struck down in court in June (which I think it will be) - the Republicans/Libertarians will tear it limb from limb the moment they get in power. And furthermore why don't we stop kidding ourselves - the rich will be relatively unaffected anyhow. Here is what fans of Obama Care or of Socialist type programs need to know - while in theory everyone gets healthcare it will be some of the worst care available. The rich and frankly people like myself will find a private practice doctor or we will network together to get the type of immediate care we want. I have heard talk of doctors who will have a very private practice that will handle a specific number of clients - wealthy clients only. All the while the gov't ran healthcare will make people wait 6-8 weeks for appointments, a politician will choose winners and losers for transplants or people will sit in a waiting room for 6-8 hours (like Canada) with your sick kid to get looked at. If you want all that mess then go for it, but it won't be for me and mine.

Jon said...

Well that had nothing to do with what I said, but anyway...

You talk like France, Sweden, and Britain are nightmares when it comes to providing health care. Is that what the data show? The US is half socialized already. Medicare and Medicade are half of medical expenditures. Fully privatized care exists. It's called the third world. The rich know better than to go the Haitian route.

Chad said...

Great job, you referenced France - rated #1 according to some so called genius formula. Before I reference some stats, why then does the most wealthy come to the USA when their life is on the line?

So France's system - 24% of income to pay for it and it still runs billion dollars losses yearly. Hooray for FRANCE!

Chad said...

Sweden oh Sweden - I just hope your not really sick using Sweden's model. 10 months for a hip replacement, 6 months for a heart valve replacement - 6 months for something that is done in 2 weeks here. Awesome idea Jon - just don't get really sick otherwise you will come to the US to live, but that don't matter to you.

Chad said...

Now to Britain my friend. In 2009, the 51 hospitals in your most perfect Utopia were inspected and all but 5 passed a basic cleanliness inspection - great Jon that is great stuff.

Pregnant women turned away at the hospital door - 7 months waiting list for heart patients. People pulling out their own teeth because they have to wait 3 months for a dentist appointment.

Let's not forget about the massive debt and decreasing number of qualified doctors going into Britain to perform medicine because they are not getting paid.

You can keep your "stats" and I will keep my US Healthcare.

Socialism has been proven a failure over and over again -- even in small samples it does not work.

Universal mandated healthcare will fail and fail miserably!!!!

Jon said...

Can you provide a link to your sources?

Chad said...

Links are everywhere.

http://voices.yahoo.com/socialized-medicine-problems-britain-2844677.html?cat=5

Chad said...

Here is another knock on Sweden.

For example:

One Gothenburg multiple sclerosis patient was prescribed a new drug but his doctor's request was denied because the drug was 33 percent more expensive than the older medicine; he then offered to pay for the medicine himself but was prevented from doing so because the bureaucrats said it would set a bad precedent and lead to unequal access to medicine.
Malmo, with its 280,000 residents, is Sweden's third-largest city to see a physician, a patient must go to one of two local clinics before they can see a specialist; the clinics have security guards to keep patients from getting unruly as they wait hours to see a doctor and the guards also prevent new patients from entering the clinic when the waiting room is considered full.
Uppsala, a city with 200,000 people, has only one specialist in mammography; Sweden's National Cancer Foundation reports that in a few years most Swedish women will not have access to mammography.

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17699

Chad said...

Jon - I think you should live in Sweden. 74% taxes at the top - that is a crime!

http://www.thelocal.se/17964/20090303/

In Denmark political parties to the left and the right have agreed on implementing a tax reform that means the highest marginal rate of tax on labour will be reduced to below 50 percent next year. The same tax rate is 57 percent in Sweden. If hidden taxes are also included, the total highest marginal tax rate on labour is a full 74 percent in Sweden.

Jon said...

I would say you need to re-consider your research methods. Take the hygiene inspections. A certain % of British hospitals failed. What % of American hospitals would fail by the same standards? You can't just look at an individual problem. Every system has individual problems. You have to compare.

I did some comparing based on cross country studies. Check it out here. The US is the worst in terms of overall satisfaction based on surveys. Not some genius formula as you suggest. Surveys of actual users. The US is better than some by some measures. We're decent on wait times. Not the best, but decent. Germany is better. The UK is better.

You point to a yahoo article that says a person was denied certain MS medication. Here's a Harvard study that shows that 45,000 Americans die every year because of lack of coverage. I'm sure the 45,000 dead Americans would rather be alive and not have access to some possibly experimental and extremely expensive medicines. There are trade-offs moving to for profit health care. Those must be considered.

If you are a towering skyscraper of wealth then sure, the US is the place to be. If only rich people matter then sure, this is the way to do it. You and I are in pretty good shape here. I can have any medical operation I need, get just about any medicine available. No problem. The difference between you and me is I admit that my success is not just a function of my work, but also a function of an accident of birth that granted me privileges that others don't have. Even janitors and migrant workers should have access to medical care in my world, not just me.

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