Thursday, August 4, 2011

The Key To Prosperity-More For The Rich

Rush Limbaugh was never given a job by a poor person. So how do we get out of this economic mess? Enlarge the holdings of the rich.

That was the theory behind Reagan's economic policies. Bush took these policies to an even further extreme.

It worked half way. The rich do have a lot. Apple is sitting on $78 billion in cash. Other corporations are hoarding cash. They have over $1 trillion in reserves now. Rich individuals now have an ever greater share of total wealth and an ever greater share of total income.

But the other half, that prosperity for others, hasn't panned out. And why would it? Am I going to run out and build a production facility simply because I have cash, supposing I was a rich person or a corporation with lots of money? Not if everybody is poor and there's no demand for the product I might produce. I'm not here to create jobs. I'm here to make profits. A business isn't a charitable organization.

Of course it's easier to see in retrospect. The Reagan theory sort of seems plausible at first blush. In my view we have to allow the results to inform our theories. The Reagan era has ushered in a severe economic down turn. Bush, who doubled down on Reagan policies, has produced economic performance that is the worst since the great depression by many measures. David Frum asks, are you too closed minded to allow history to effect your thinking? What can I say? I believed it too. But the results must be considered.


Chad said...

Where is it written that the rich (for that matter anyone) has the responsibility to fund big government, big government programs and to pay for the parasite class?

The rich/wealthy have been targeted as public and government enemy #1 and until that attitude reverses itself I see no reason why anything will change. You were very critical about my Atlas Shrugged comments, but that is what is going on here - a silent but deadly protest is taking place and I applaud it.

We have a gov't that is too large, too influential, too powerful with too many regulations, taxes and social programs that have no chance to survive long term. The rich see the writing on the wall and are positioning themselves to continue standing after the fall out.

Ironically enough - the only way this country gets back on track is by job creation and the only people that has the know how and the cash is the rich. Quite the position that puts the Progressive movement in now doesn't it. To create the jobs needed to continue funding all these failing gov't programs they need the very people they hate the most to make that happen.

I see Obama and the Progressive folding like a lawn chair over the next 6-8 months to create jobs - it is going to be entertaining!

Entry of the day for me that I copied of Facebook that sums up exactly what America has become.

Over 5000 years ago, Moses said to Israel, 'Pick up your shovels, mount your asses and camels, and I will lead you to the Promised Land.

When Welfare was introduced, Roosevelt said, 'Lay down your shovels, sit on your asses, and light up a Camel, this is the Promised Land.

Today, the government has stolen your shovel, taxed your asses, raised the price of Camels, and mortgaged the Promised Land to China !

Paul said...

Chad - your argument is self refuting.

Ironically enough - the only way this country gets back on track is by job creation and the only people that has the know how and the cash is the rich. Quite the position that puts the Progressive movement in now doesn't it. To create the jobs needed to continue funding all these failing gov't programs they need the very people they hate the most to make that happen.

So the "rich" have the know how and they have the cash (they are rich). So what is preventing from creating the jobs that they would otherwise be creating? It isn't lack of money (they are rich), it isn't lack of know-how (your claim) so ... that leaves what? Regulations? Which regulations are in place that you want to get rid of or that are hindering progress? Be specific - and of these I will only accept those that are acceptable in your back-yard (NIMBY-ism will not be accepted).

Chad said...

Corporate Tax Rate Federal 35%
Corporate State Tax Rate 7%
Personal Property Placement Tax 2.5%
Social Security Tax 6.2%
Medicare Tax 1.45%
Health Care Tax/Penalty
Capital Gains Tax

Just off the top of my head.

Paul said...

Chad -

Do you agree that regulations and tax rates are not related?

Jon said...

Seriously Chad, what else do you want? The last 30 years has offered you precisely what you want. Tax rates on the rich have fallen through the floor. Corporate taxes have fallen through the floor.

The rich are going Galt? Where are they going to go? Take a look at tax receipts as a % of GDP by country for leading countries. If the rich want to flee to low tax regions, are they off to Haiti or Africa. You want to live in Tanzania? To flee to the unregulated low tax regions means you flee to the crap countries. If they flee, won't they flee to nice countries? Maybe S Korea or Japan? But then these are the countries with meddlesome governments.

We have tried you prescriptions. It's the Reagan era and the Bush era. Soaring unemployment. Stagnant and declining wages. Repeated financial crises. Soaring inequality. Reductions in economic growth. I understand the appeal of your claims. Let people keep what they earn. But at what point do you look at the results of your preferred policies and say, OK, it didn't work? Does a look at the consequences ever enter the picture?

Chad said...

It should be clarified that my ideas have never been put to the test as far as I know. Since I am big on small gov't, individual responsibilities and state's rights - my perfect America would be to have 50 states making their own decisions.

In fact I would argue that neither the old guard Republicans nor the Democrats would say they had complete control either.

My hope now is for the Tea Party to continue their march of strength. Freedom Works is adding an average of 1,500 members a day! My chapter here went from 17 members to 135 members in 7 months. Now that it has been proven over and over that the hatred for the Tea Party is political motivated and not rooted in fact our membership continues to grow stronger.

Jon what your failing to realize and weigh appropriately is that regardless of who was in charge - how good the economy was/is or will be - gov't spending and entitlement programs were eventually going to consume America GDP. Now - add in gov't regulations, the fact that the dollar through printing of money is worth 1/5 what it use to and huge class of people not paying their fair share (50% not paying income taxes) and you have a disaster on your hands.

The Gov't will always take more and instead of creating jobs they can only create a larger recipient class. All the Progressive thinking over the past 100 years is catching up to us right now.

Chad said...

Paul - regulations in the energy sector are strangling my customer base in the power gen and heat transfer markets. Coal specifically has been a target of Obama - 5 coal plants are scheduled for decommissioning in 2012 - many are the biggest in the country. Over 100,000 direct jobs will be gone - 3 times that affect through indirect losses. There will be small towns wiped off the map because of Obama's regulations.

Jon said...

Chad, nobody gets precisely what they want. But what you have gotten over the last 30 years is a shift away from my preferred policies and towards your preferred policies. Taxes aren't at zero but they are lower. Unions aren't entirely gone, but they are diminished. Subsidies to public universities aren't zero, but they've declined. Not perfect. But better in your mind, right?

You can complain about Obama, but on this debt ceiling deal he gave you exactly what you want. No tax increases. Cuts in entitlements. Basically double down on the failed Bush policies.

And tell us where you're going to go, John Galt. Sweden? Denmark? China? Haiti? Africa? Where is this better location you will flee to?

Paul said...

Chad -

Paul - regulations in the energy sector are strangling my customer base in the power gen and heat transfer markets. Coal specifically has been a target of Obama - 5 coal plants are scheduled for decommissioning in 2012 - many are the biggest in the country. Over 100,000 direct jobs will be gone - 3 times that affect through indirect losses. There will be small towns wiped off the map because of Obama's regulations.

I am prepared to accept all of this when you identify which policies have been put in place by his administration. Until then I'll remain skeptical of your claims - particularly of the implication that his policies (whatever they may be) are the primary reason of the shutdown of these five coal plants. Btw - I am not familiar w/t he coal industry. Can you identify some of these plants that are closing.

Chad said...

My personal favorite was that Americans work 231 days per year just to pay for government regulations.

Chad said...

No thanks Jon, I will stay here with my fellow Patriots to help rebuild what the Progressive movement has destroyed over the past 100 years.

I know you can't agree, but this problem has nothing to do with the tax rate and everything to do with gov't spending, entitlements and the recipient class.

I will continue saying that your freedom to be you gives me my freedom to be free from you. Another word - you want big entitlements fine don't ask me to participate - take the pool of people who believe in that and pay for it. You want Obama Care - cool, but don't steal from me and I promise not to participate.

The debt deal was a big loser and the Democrats actually won at that moment. Now with a downgrade, a market free fall, no jobs and a media that is growing impatient with the WH it appears that the only winners in this are the tea party members. The only plan I supported was The Mack Penny Plan. The Cut, Cap and Balanced was barely ok, but the Mack Penny Plan was the only option on the table for me.

Also I do enjoy low taxes and support not having gov't involved in anything like college or health care. Thankfully we are moving in that direction.

Chad said...

Jon - you keep pushing the Universal Health Care option - you have to watch all 20 minutes of this video. That is all you pal - no way in hell would I ever agree to that mess.

9 hours in waiting room with broken Clavical only to be sent home to see a specialist the next day, Centers closed on Weekends, 3 years to get a family doctor.

Women has a problem that needed a surgery - a year goes by and they don't do the procedure and she loses both legs.

7 hours in a waiting room for a BABY who was sick.

5-10 Months to see a dermatologist.

Count me out forever.

Jon said...

Entitlement spending got us to where we are now? How do you figure that? Social Security has run a huge surplus over the years. Benefits finally exceeded revenues in 2010 I believe. How is it that a fund that has managed to build such a huge surplus contributed to the problem? People put money away to have this program when they retire. The government took that money and wasted it on wars and banker bail outs. How can you blame Social Security? If anything it has contributed to keeping our deficit down.

Same with Medicare. It was running a surplus until Bush came in and destroyed it. Still it's had many surplus years in the past and on net is pretty much even. How do you blame entitlements for our current predicament?

Jon said...

Chad, I watched this 20 minute video from Fox News "hottest and brightest new young conservative mind." Here are some thoughts.

First of all Canada is not the greatest. Nobody says they are. Take the rankings of the World Health Organization. Sure, they're beating us. So what? We're barely beating out Cuba. Canada has problems with wait times. That's well known. I blogged about it here. So armed with that knowledge you can go to Canada and find people that have problems with wait times.

Likewise you can look around in our country and look at people that skip care because they can't afford it and they are laid off. You can find people doing their own dental work. Take a look at the studies discussed at my blog post I refer to above. That's revealed in the polling data. So we have our horror stories. You can watch them in Sicko. The poor are taken from the ER and dumped in alley ways. 9-11 first responders have to hop a boat to Cuba to get basic care.

So why not contrast us with France or Spain? I understand Canada is closer, so it's a natural comparison, but you need to keep in mind that we're really comparing them for that reason, not because they represent the best a publicly provided system can offer.

His cost analysis though is a lot of spin. He doesn't say they are more expensive than us, but he implies it. He says "Look at how much a person making $65K pays in Canada." What a bizarre measure. Why not look at what health services cost or what they pain in taxes overall? I'll tell you why. Because everybody knows that they par FAR less than we do for health care. And I took a look at their nation wide taxes contrasted with ours. We're not looking great. Your guy here is using the Koch brothers studies that we've discussed before. We know how they operate. Not false, but misleading.

I found it funny to hear him criticize a two tiered system. Partly public and partly private. That's just terrible because then only the rich get good care, says Crowder. We have a two tiered system. Ever heard of Medicare? The government already pays over half the bills for health care in the US.

Jon said...

Get this, Chad. Obama Care is Republican Care. You don't like it, but it's true. What we have here with Obama is nothing that liberals I know advocate or ever advocated. We want single payer or a public option, not this Heritage Foundation plan, which is nothing but Romney Care. This President is giving the right everything they ever wanted. Cuts in entitlements, extension of Bush tax cuts, wars, surveillance, torture, prosecution of whistleblowers while the real criminals go free. He's a Republican dream come true and yet listening to the media you'd think he was some sort of socialist. Seems kind of bizarre, but actually makes a lot of sense if you dig a little.

Chad said...

Remember Jon - The only thing that I ask, the Tea Party Patriots, the Conservatives and Libertarians are asking from you and the Progressive movement is to stop forcing our participation.

Social Security is a Ponzi scheme almost by definition. You say it had a surplus before Bush fine - I honestly do not care. I want the option to not participate period - I don't want to participate in Soc Security, I do not want to participate in a single payer health care system.

If those options are so great and wonderful they should be able to stand alone without me. I will take care of me and my family - allow me to manage my retirement. If I fail - put my body in a dumpster when I die - I am good with that. Simply put my retirement and my healthcare responsibilities belong to me and not the government - period.

I will agree to disagree about the solvency of Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. The evidence is pretty substantial that both programs would eventually fail. Anytime you must pre-fund something with 100% participation to make it work is not a good program.

France and Spain are dying Jon - they are on the brink of collapse because of the weight of the social programs put in place.

Jon said...

You're just not responding to what I wrote. You don't want to have to contribute to Social Security and Medicare. Yeah, I know that. But the basis for your criticisms is totally wrong. These programs have not caused the debt we presently have. These programs are funded with dedicated payroll taxes and on net look to me to be at surplus status, though I don't have the precise figures. Who's telling you these are the cause of the debt? Mike Church? Fox News? The Koch brothers? The Blaze? In my view the general level of hostility you have to the government is based on false information peddled by people that are dedicated to service of their corporate masters. Hate the government if you want, but at least get the facts right.